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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:00 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
(like, letting them turn around)


I wonder how hard that would be to code. No sarcasm intended here. Is it really possible to code a button for planes to turn around, but only on ground ?

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
eekee wrote:
vehicle will drive to the front of the station through the vehicles in front

while that is a solution to the deadlock problem, it is not a good solution.

the thing is, with both trains and roadvehicles, the player has methods of influencing the vehicles (like, letting them turn around), that you don't get with planes, that's why it's more important to put pressure on the designers to avoid such deadlocks.

Why don't you get it; what's wrong with adding it? Point to note: You couldn't turn trams around until some time after I complained. :p The guys who coded trams didn't want to add it. With any new feature in OpenTTD, there's always this resistance against making it fit the game. I can understand the feeling, but I'm fed up with it! :P



Separately, the bug with station names being clickable despite being hidden affects anything behind the station name, not just town names. In the same save as before, try clicking the lower half of the depot behind Barranca Heights, or part of the water supply behind Barranca East.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 4:14 pm 
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eekee wrote:
Separately, the bug with station names being clickable despite being hidden...


... Was a bug in master that's now fixed.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:16 pm 
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peter1138 wrote:
eekee wrote:
Separately, the bug with station names being clickable despite being hidden...


... Was a bug in master that's now fixed.

Glad it's fixed! :D

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 5:41 pm 
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eekee wrote:
Point to note: You couldn't turn trams around until some time after I complained. :p The guys who coded trams didn't want to add it. With any new feature in OpenTTD, there's always this resistance against making it fit the game.
There is a difference between a thing that is technically possible, but deliberately disabled, and something technically completely new that has to be developed first.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 7:45 pm 
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eekee wrote:
Point to note: You couldn't turn trams around until some time after I complained. :p The guys who coded trams didn't want to add it. With any new feature in OpenTTD, there's always this resistance against making it fit the game. I can understand the feeling, but I'm fed up with it!


If it had been up to me, it would've been a parameter. Just like 90 degree curves, I think they are completely unrealistic as you would never see any tram doing that IRL, but are still useful for a few gameplay purposes.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:35 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
eekee wrote:
Point to note: You couldn't turn trams around until some time after I complained. :p The guys who coded trams didn't want to add it. With any new feature in OpenTTD, there's always this resistance against making it fit the game. I can understand the feeling, but I'm fed up with it!


If it had been up to me, it would've been a parameter. Just like 90 degree curves, I think they are completely unrealistic as you would never see any tram doing that IRL, but are still useful for a few gameplay purposes.

You mean the 90 degree train option? Ever been to Chicago? Ever heard the noise as the twisted-up axles sort themselves out mid-bend? Doesn't seem to happen so much on the tracks on the outside of the curves, but on the inside curves it's feaking loud! Still, in TTD it's useful to turn it off because 90 degree turns appear as unintended consequences of junction design.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:55 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
eekee wrote:
Point to note: You couldn't turn trams around until some time after I complained. :p The guys who coded trams didn't want to add it. With any new feature in OpenTTD, there's always this resistance against making it fit the game. I can understand the feeling, but I'm fed up with it!


If it had been up to me, it would've been a parameter. Just like 90 degree curves, I think they are completely unrealistic as you would never see any tram doing that IRL, but are still useful for a few gameplay purposes.

In real life if things go completely pear shaped you could drive the tram in the opposite direction on the same physical track and/or use a crossover onto the track heading in the opposite direction, which isn't an option in OpenTTD.
Some types of in-game road vehicle jam/deadlock are almost impossible to recover without turning vehicles around.

peter1138 wrote:
eekee wrote:
Separately, the bug with station names being clickable despite being hidden...


... Was a bug in master that's now fixed.

That has also been merged into my branch, so it'll be in the next release.

acs121 wrote:
Eddi wrote:
(like, letting them turn around)


I wonder how hard that would be to code. No sarcasm intended here. Is it really possible to code a button for planes to turn around, but only on ground ?

Having aircraft able to turn around at arbitrary points is likely to make it more difficult to design a fully correct and sensible movement state machine.

acs121 wrote:
Road vehicles are allowed to take over each other IRL just as in OpenTTD because we consider you have great visibility and speed (unless you're taking over a snail).

In game overtaking doesn't work for articulated vehicles, which is a slight snag.
It's also rather too conservative in the case of one-way roads, which is a whole extra can of worms.

McZapkie wrote:
I would like to remind suggestion about possibility of cloning/using template consist of expired vehicles, in case of "use remain vehicles" button is active.

I have been thinking about this and the UI implications are not really that straightforward.
The use vehicles in depot and keep remainders toggles can only be used after the template has been created.
Normal users are likely to be confused if they create and apply a template which can't actually be constructed, and are not made aware of that fact.
I don't really want to add yet another setting.
So allowing creation of the template, but clearly warning and/or requiring user confirmation would seem plausible.
Confirmation dialogs are a bit problematic and introduce unpleasant lifetime/raciness issues at clone time.
A prominent warning message on the template would then seem the most practical.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:42 pm 
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JGR wrote:
acs121 wrote:
Eddi wrote:
(like, letting them turn around)


I wonder how hard that would be to code. No sarcasm intended here. Is it really possible to code a button for planes to turn around, but only on ground ?

Having aircraft able to turn around at arbitrary points is likely to make it more difficult to design a fully correct and sensible movement state machine.


Well, I thought about that too... I think it would be better if planes did just like trains do with the setting for them to automatically turn around when blocked at a signal for a certain time.

JGR wrote:
acs121 wrote:
Road vehicles are allowed to take over each other IRL just as in OpenTTD because we consider you have great visibility and speed (unless you're taking over a snail).

In game overtaking doesn't work for articulated vehicles, which is a slight snag.
It's also rather too conservative in the case of one-way roads, which is a whole extra can of worms.


It's normal it doesn't work for articulated vehicles. IRL this kind of thing is quite dangerous with articulated buses, and it's infinitely dangerous with semi-trailer and trailer trucks. Take a look a few seconds at MAN TGX trucks as an example.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:45 pm 
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JGR wrote:
The use vehicles in depot and keep remainders toggles can only be used after the template has been created.

Well, it is a valid point.
But there are two Copy buttons, one in main window, one in window which pop out when Edit button was clicked,
in such case "use remain." button already exists.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 10:29 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
It's normal it doesn't work for articulated vehicles. IRL this kind of thing is quite dangerous with articulated buses, and it's infinitely dangerous with semi-trailer and trailer trucks. Take a look a few seconds at MAN TGX trucks as an example.


I am truck driver IRL and I overtake other vehicles all the time. Tractors, cars other trucks. If you're running empty you have the same acceleration as a car. You just need a bit more road to do it with.


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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:50 am 
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Diesel Power wrote:
acs121 wrote:
It's normal it doesn't work for articulated vehicles. IRL this kind of thing is quite dangerous with articulated buses, and it's infinitely dangerous with semi-trailer and trailer trucks. Take a look a few seconds at MAN TGX trucks as an example.


I am truck driver IRL and I overtake other vehicles all the time. Tractors, cars other trucks. If you're running empty you have the same acceleration as a car. You just need a bit more road to do it with.


To me, it depends on which truck you have. Common trucks, such as the Renault D, which don't have a trailer, can overtake easily most vehicles. But if you overtake other vehicles while your truck is empty, that may be less risky.
Also, in OpenTTD, this problem with articulated trucks is almost never encountered as the base vehicles are based off British vehicles. Generally, trucks in Europe are shorter, and they are often trailer-less (as most of them are delivery trucks, garbage trucks, etc) than North American ones. Of course, there's no such thing as long-distance trucks in the base vehicle set, while there are semi-trailers in Europe IRL.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:10 am 
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Hello

acs121 wrote:
It's normal it doesn't work for articulated vehicles. IRL this kind of thing is quite dangerous with articulated buses, and it's infinitely dangerous with semi-trailer and trailer trucks. Take a look a few seconds at MAN TGX trucks as an example.

I expect you to never drove on a German Autobahn. Lorries with trailers and semi trailers overtaking each other with a speed difference of (in best case) only 2kph are common on the Autobahn.

That led to a (not so nice) joke about an overtaking maneuvre (lorry overtaking another lorry) on the A7, starting shortly behind the border to Denmark (north of Germany) that succeedes near the Autobahnkreuz Frankfurt am Main (after nearly 650km) causing emergency supply actions with helicopters for the stucked behind car drivers to serve them with meal, drinking and blankets against the cold.

Tschö, Auge

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:29 am 
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Auge wrote:
That led to a (not so nice very funny) joke about an overtaking maneuvre (lorry overtaking another lorry) on the A7, starting shortly behind the border to Denmark (north of Germany) that succeedes near the Autobahnkreuz Frankfurt am Main (after nearly 650km) causing emergency supply actions with helicopters for the stucked behind car drivers to serve them with meal, drinking and blankets against the cold.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:bow:

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 9:16 am 
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acs121 wrote:
JGR wrote:
acs121 wrote:

I wonder how hard that would be to code. No sarcasm intended here. Is it really possible to code a button for planes to turn around, but only on ground ?

Having aircraft able to turn around at arbitrary points is likely to make it more difficult to design a fully correct and sensible movement state machine.


Well, I thought about that too... I think it would be better if planes did just like trains do with the setting for them to automatically turn around when blocked at a signal for a certain time.

The plane turns around and... then what? Drive onto the wrong end of the landing strip where another plane might already be waiting? Or even on the way down and then you have not just one but two planes crash?
I see two ways out, one is to carefully design rules that can path aircraft on ground such that they never deadlock, the other is to detect deadlocks in airports and if they happen then teleport all the aircraft to a hangar.

Yesterday I put some ideas for modular airports on the wiki, but if you want to discuss that another thread is probably better.


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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 11:57 am 
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Auge wrote:
Hello

acs121 wrote:
It's normal it doesn't work for articulated vehicles. IRL this kind of thing is quite dangerous with articulated buses, and it's infinitely dangerous with semi-trailer and trailer trucks. Take a look a few seconds at MAN TGX trucks as an example.

I expect you to never drove on a German Autobahn. Lorries with trailers and semi trailers overtaking each other with a speed difference of (in best case) only 2kph are common on the Autobahn.

That led to a (not so nice) joke about an overtaking maneuvre (lorry overtaking another lorry) on the A7, starting shortly behind the border to Denmark (north of Germany) that succeedes near the Autobahnkreuz Frankfurt am Main (after nearly 650km) causing emergency supply actions with helicopters for the stucked behind car drivers to serve them with meal, drinking and blankets against the cold.

Tschö, Auge


I did. But it's not because it's common that it's totally safe. The example about the A7 is one amongst others. In France, where I live, truck length (with their trailer) is limited to 18.75m, while in Germany, truck length (with their trailer too) is limited to 25m. And I did see a few 25m trucks on the Autobahn. It's not the fact that they run on the Autobahn that is dangerous. Just like 18m trucks, the thing is that some overtake while

jfs wrote:
acs121 wrote:
JGR wrote:
Having aircraft able to turn around at arbitrary points is likely to make it more difficult to design a fully correct and sensible movement state machine.


Well, I thought about that too... I think it would be better if planes did just like trains do with the setting for them to automatically turn around when blocked at a signal for a certain time.

The plane turns around and... then what? Drive onto the wrong end of the landing strip where another plane might already be waiting? Or even on the way down and then you have not just one but two planes crash?
I see two ways out, one is to carefully design rules that can path aircraft on ground such that they never deadlock, the other is to detect deadlocks in airports and if they happen then teleport all the aircraft to a hangar.

Yesterday I put some ideas for modular airports on the wiki, but if you want to discuss that another thread is probably better.


What I meant is that planes should turn at specific points, and not arbitrary ones. I admit I may not have been very clear...

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:31 pm 
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Hello

acs121 wrote:
I did. But it's not because it's common that it's totally safe. The example about the A7 is one amongst others. In France, where I live, truck length (with their trailer) is limited to 18.75m, while in Germany, truck length (with their trailer too) is limited to 25m.

As you might know, both countries are member states of the EU. In Germany the length of a Lorry with a trailer is limited to 18.75m as in France (and most likely all other EU-countries), and not to 25m. The lenght of an articulated lorry is limited to 16.50m.

acs121 wrote:
It's not the fact that they run on the Autobahn that is dangerous. Just like 18m trucks, the thing is that some overtake while

... while whatever. You said, that in reality a lorry overtaking another lorry is dangerous, I said, a lorry overtaking another lorry is common on German Autobahn (independent from the associated dangers). At no point I said, that it is in itself dangerous, to have lorries driving on the Autobahn.

To come back to OpenTTD; as far as I understand, it is a technical limitation, that articulated street vehicles are not able to overtake. The original games (TT, TTD) didn't know articulated vehicles. The situation on the streets of the real world is IMHO not a good reasoning for this game play limitation.

Tschö, Auge

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 4:06 pm 
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25m trucks are not a pure german invention, but they are still experimental and only allowed on certain stretches of road. iirc currently mostly in the north (crossing to denmark)

if you want to see really huge articulated trucks, there are "road trains" in places like australia.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 6:45 pm 
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Auge wrote:
Hello

acs121 wrote:
I did. But it's not because it's common that it's totally safe. The example about the A7 is one amongst others. In France, where I live, truck length (with their trailer) is limited to 18.75m, while in Germany, truck length (with their trailer too) is limited to 25m.

As you might know, both countries are member states of the EU. In Germany the length of a Lorry with a trailer is limited to 18.75m as in France (and most likely all other EU-countries), and not to 25m. The lenght of an articulated lorry is limited to 16.50m.

acs121 wrote:
It's not the fact that they run on the Autobahn that is dangerous. Just like 18m trucks, the thing is that some overtake while

... while whatever. You said, that in reality a lorry overtaking another lorry is dangerous, I said, a lorry overtaking another lorry is common on German Autobahn (independent from the associated dangers). At no point I said, that it is in itself dangerous, to have lorries driving on the Autobahn.

To come back to OpenTTD; as far as I understand, it is a technical limitation, that articulated street vehicles are not able to overtake. The original games (TT, TTD) didn't know articulated vehicles. The situation on the streets of the real world is IMHO not a good reasoning for this game play limitation.

Tschö, Auge


Then I don't know what to say about this Wikipedia page which says Germany does allow trucks with trailers with a total length of 25m : clicky me

Also, dammit, I forgot to write the end of my sentence. :lol:
Problem is, I even forgot what I wanted to write. Ugh... :(

To come back to OpenTTD too : I think it should be done just like it is being done with 90° curves. It should be a parameter.

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 Post subject: Re: JGR's Patch Pack
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:08 pm 
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It's not case of adding a parameter. It's a case of actually adding the code for these vehicles to be able to overtake. It's not disabled, it's simply not there.

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