Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Ed, » 17 Feb 2013 13:16

With bankruptcy could it be possible to make the bankrupt companies track free for all to connect to so you can build a depot for your trains to rush too?

Also with revoking the sharing would it not have a 6 month lag time so the other guy can get his trains off your tracks, if they are still there after they are sold/ scrapped.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by MasterMeNL » 21 Sep 2013 12:20

So I tried updating dadymax's IS patch to r25786, everything merged fine but infrastructure_func.h is causing a lot of errors.
Now perk11 managed to compile it although he says the fix came from someone else (and apparently it was never uploaded publicly).

Does anybody have this updated file?
I can post the work I have so far if someone wants it.

Thanks in forward,

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Pyoro » 26 Sep 2013 11:34

Imo the easiest way to get a working version of this patch is taking the implementation from the hard game patch pack; that seems to work fine for me.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by MasterMeNL » 26 Sep 2013 14:17

I tried it before, but I do have some more knowledge about C++ now.
I'll try again and see if I can get it working this time.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Andrex » 05 May 2014 00:44

Hirundo wrote:30-12-2009

We think this new patch has better chances of getting into trunk at some point. This will be very unlikely before the release of 0.7.0, though. We do hope that this patch will be reviewed in the not-too-distant future, so we can make improvements and fixes where needed. Then, when trunk inclusion becomes a more serious option, we plan to split the patch into separate, smaller parts to facilitate a more thorough review.
After 4 years, that point seems too distant yet.

I suggest the release of a separate airport sharing patch that could have much more possibilities of being implemented in trunk versions.

Currently, many servers block the building of aircrafts because the current airport infraestructure model is problematic in multiplayer games, due to a large array of reasons. (And if they don't block it, they should). Therefore, airport sharing is a more urgent matter.

Suggestions for this patch (probably some already existing, but anyway)
  • When company B wants to use the airport made by company A, company B must pay a one-time fee that equals the airport construction cost, or a small fee for each plane that lands in that airport.
  • Implement a plane limit per company equivalent to (amount of airports in game) * 2, to prevent airport congestions. If the game has 5 airports, you can buy 10 planes. (multiplier should be increased in larger maps?)
  • Any company can upgrade the airport with a larger one, by placing the new airport over the old one (there is an abandoned/incomplete patch for this, somewhere). Immediately, the company that upgraded the airport pays no more fees for its usage.
  • Disallow the removal of airports, only allow upgrading them. Or better, disallow its removal while a plane (from any company) includes it in its orders.
  • Replace the aircrafts Stop button with Go to Depot to prevent them from blocking an airport.
Implementing a simple airport sharing feature, will immediately bring back the possibility of aircrafts in all servers and make games more interesting. In my opinion, railway and bus stop sharing could create more problems than it solves, while airport sharing is a really needed feature.

I know that the mere mention of the airport upgrading patch will fire up an immediate rejection reflex in some developers, because they can write an entire essay of issues against that patch. But such rejection does not solve the matter at hand, so please, let's start by admitting that there is something wrong with the current airports model in multiplayer games, and that it could be fixed somehow at some point.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by TrueSatan » 05 May 2014 09:20

Hmmm... if you wanted it more like the real world, towns should be the only ones building and upgrading airports ;)
To be honest I don't see why every company B,C,D,E... that uses the airport of company A has to pay the full price.
If you have more then one company (and thats likely in a multi player game) then one company would build airports like
mad only to get money from other companies wanting to use their airport. A fee for landing on the airport
would be the appropriate approach imho.
Second why limiting how many planes you can build. They will crash because they are out of fuel if they can't land (and the right setting ) ;)
Sure you can block someone if you use more planes then landing spots, but same can happen for trains or buses
as well. So if you want infrastructure sharing you have to limit all vehicles in the game.
And even then someone will find some dirty tricks to prevent others from using a certain station, airport whatever.

Next point, no other company should be allowed to upgrade the airport, only the airport owner should be able to.
And if the owner goes bankrupt the infrastructure (since all would be lost) should be sold in an auction.
If you want something like airport sharing maybe some system should be implemented to buy shares of the airport.
And even then it would be better to have the town build an upgrade an airport rather then letting the companies do that ;)

I agree that removal should be forbidden, but then again it would be best only towns can build (certain) airports and upgrade them
or even close them down if there are not goods or passengers. Bit like an industry (and certainly an airport is a micro city and industry :D )
But you forgot to mention that there is need to gray out the "close down airport" button as well ;)

The last point you have there would be again for all vehicles (maybe except ships ;) )
Stopping a trains around a station would block all others as well.
You only can play with infrastructure sharing if there are no jerks playing with you on the server ;)
Or you have some good and fair admin thats handles those who are blocking other players on purpose.

Infrastructure sharing with the current train breakdown system would be a nightmare as well. Imagine 10 trains on the same
line and they all break down one after the other. the last train owner would cry the whole time sitting there watching his train
getting only a few blocks every ingame year waiting to get to the next station ;D

And then.... you are a gravedigger Andrex :P The thread is old as... you know *lol*

I really like the idea of structure sharing and it could be funny with some decent AI or some really good player, but then there would be no
need for changes anyway. With the right people the game can always be fun. :)

Only my two cent digging on the same grave :P

Happy dispatching.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by McZapkie » 05 May 2014 09:54

Airport shares is good idea, player can buy 25...75% rights to use airport, and use 25 to 75% of maximal aircraft limit (defined for given airport type).
In case of infrastructure maintenance costs turned on, every player pay maintenance costs proportional to shares.

Airport builder have 25% shares initially, thus he can buy 75% other shares and have his airport by own.

In case of bankruptcy, airport is not bulldozed, if at least 25% shares is owned by third party.
In this case, shares of bankrupt are free to sale.
Airport can be upgraded by player with highest amount of shares (or any other if there are some equal shares: 50%/50% or 25% each).

Please note, that you must be able to connect your bus/train stations to shared airport.
I don't know, how to manage with cargo delivered to shared airport.
In my opinion, there should be only one common cargo stockpile.
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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Luckz » 05 May 2014 12:31

TrueSatan wrote:To be honest I don't see why every company B,C,D,E... that uses the airport of company A has to pay the full price.
If you have more then one company (and thats likely in a multi player game) then one company would build airports like
mad only to get money from other companies wanting to use their airport.
I'm not sure if he meant that company B has to pay the fee to company A, or if company B has to pay the fee 'to the game', as if they built an own airport.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by TrueSatan » 05 May 2014 13:57

Neither makes sense ;) Some shares or fees are the right thing in my opinion.
And I found the topic why this thread was digged :)

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Andrex » 05 May 2014 14:53

I refloated the topic because I wanted to see if we can have some progress regarding infraestructure sharing just for an airport sharing patch that could get into trunk. Just airports only. Everytime someone mentions anything regarding infra sharing, they are redirected to this topic and that's it. If the topic is abandoned, there will be no progress whatsoever.
TrueSatan wrote:... it would be best only towns can build (certain) airports and upgrade them
Initially, I also had the same idea of cities building and upgrading airports. But I switched to companies building them because:
  • Easier to implement by developers
  • Users will surely make airports closer/more integrated to the city center, or in better locations than the AI
  • How would the AI upgrade a small airport with a larger one, when there is infraestructure blocking the way to enlarge the airport?
The AI could replace a city airport (classic large airport) with a metropolitan one, since they have the same size. But it could not replace it with an international or intercontinental one, unless there is plenty of free space available near the airport.

Airport upgrading patch here is mandatory here because otherwise, the current (shared) airport would have to be deleted to place the new one. After deleting it, there's no guarantee that a new one will be built to replace it.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by TrueSatan » 05 May 2014 19:31

Andrex wrote:I refloated the topic because I wanted to see if we can have some progress regarding infraestructure sharing just for an airport sharing patch that could get into trunk. Just airports only. Everytime someone mentions anything regarding infra sharing, they are redirected to this topic and that's it. If the topic is abandoned, there will be no progress whatsoever.
TrueSatan wrote:... it would be best only towns can build (certain) airports and upgrade them
Initially, I also had the same idea of cities building and upgrading airports. But I switched to companies building them because:
  • Easier to implement by developers
  • Users will surely make airports closer/more integrated to the city center, or in better locations than the AI
  • How would the AI upgrade a small airport with a larger one, when there is infraestructure blocking the way to enlarge the airport?
The AI could replace a city airport (classic large airport) with a metropolitan one, since they have the same size. But it could not replace it with an international or intercontinental one, unless there is plenty of free space available near the airport.

Airport upgrading patch here is mandatory here because otherwise, the current (shared) airport would have to be deleted to place the new one. After deleting it, there's no guarantee that a new one will be built to replace it.
*hehe* thats okay for me but grave digging... is dead thread digging ;)
I doubt implementing any of this is easy enough. All sounds like a lot of work, even with half a patch from ages ago...

If you look at airports in real life nowadays they are far from the city center as well, so the AI would do the same and thats fine.
Replacement could be done by AI even easier then by players. They remove those building and streets in their way
and that without getting bad reputation *lol* (no elections in openttd :D). I don't see why the city building AI couldn't do
that in a good way.
It even more difficulty for the player to do so if you set noise prevents airports to a high level and/or the city counsel less permissive.

And for multi player it would be the "better" solution, as no one can "cheat" on the other(s).

I think a deleted airport is not a real problem. It should only happen if no one uses it or none of the planes landing on it make any profit.
Since there is the option to close down the airport for upgrading I don't see why the AI should remove the airport, it only upgrades it like you would do.

But I doubt that something that big will be in trunk anytime soon. First of all there has to be an active developer for it.
Even Cirdans - in my opinion - very useful signals in tunnels (yeah I now its new map features :P ) is far from being
implemented into the trunk. And many other small patches haven't ever reached the trunk until now.
Besides the programming and testing you have to maintain the patch part afterwards. And most are here only in their spare time
(or so I guess). Maintaining something you haven't programmed could be a big thing. Guess you know it better then me,
because you are programming as well ;) I dropped it some time ago lol

So as much as I would appreciate infrastructure sharing, I have the feeling it will be dead for the next 5 years again.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Eddi » 05 May 2014 23:09

if you want "shared public airports", maybe you should make a GameScript that builds airports with "OWNER_NONE" [this will work similar to oil platforms]. allowing this would be a very simple patch.

you will still have the payment problem when transferring cargo between companies (especially if cargodist is involved)
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Andrex » 06 May 2014 14:52

Eddi wrote:if you want "shared public airports", maybe you should make a GameScript that builds airports with "OWNER_NONE"
Thanks, can you please point me to some documentation on how to implement a script like that? I'll forward that information to server owners to see if they can implement it, because we can't expect any progress from developers around here.

Evidently no developer would ever had this ludicrous idea of multiplayer servers with aircrafts with a fair model for all companies. At least they could have the decency of replying with the usual excuses for not being interested.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Eddi » 06 May 2014 15:47

a really great way to get your point across is to insult the person you're discussing with.
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by andythenorth » 06 May 2014 15:47

Andrex wrote:At least they could have the decency of replying with the usual excuses for not being interested.
If you don't think the product is good enough, you are entitled to a full refund, no questions asked.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Andrex » 09 May 2014 01:49

Eddi wrote:a really great way to get your point across is to insult the person you're discussing with.
But I'm not discussing anything with any developer since they are not even replying this post. If you are a developer, kindly disregard that comment and thanks for your time in replying here, which I appreciate.
andythenorth wrote:If you don't think the product is good enough, you are entitled to a full refund, no questions asked.
In other words, "because it's free it cannot not be improved"? Sorry but I disagree with you. It can always be improved, regardless of its license.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Alberth » 09 May 2014 05:30

Andrex wrote:
andythenorth wrote:If you don't think the product is good enough, you are entitled to a full refund, no questions asked.
In other words, "because it's free it cannot not be improved"? Sorry but I disagree with you. It can always be improved, regardless of its license.
It means you have no obligation to use this program. You obviously don't seem to like it.

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by beeurd » 09 May 2014 12:46

Reading the discussion regarding airports a thought occurred to me that perhaps cities should build an airport terminal building, and players merely add runways up to a certain point defined by city. This would allow multiple companies to add runways to an airport, thus technically sharing it.

However, I don't know if that is in the realm of possibility or a different game entirely. ;)

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Re: Infrastructure sharing 2.1.1

Post by Gigigonzalez » 21 Aug 2014 15:17

Hello all. is infrastructure sharing still stable on latest revision?


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