Transport Tycoon Forums

The place to talk about Transport Tycoon
It is currently Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:51 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 1017 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 551 Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:52 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:20 pm
Posts: 89
Regarding the bug, I have posted: It occures only when there is at least one free tile between platform and exit signal from platform. If you place signal right after the platform, patch is working fine.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:59 pm 
Offline
Route Supervisor
Route Supervisor

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:24 am
Posts: 420
Michi_cc wrote:
To determine what kind of signal should be build by default, I could introduce another patch setting, but I know that the OpenTTD devs generally frown uppon too much patch settings, so I'm a bit weary about that.

Comments on that issue are appreciated.


I personally think that one-way signals should not be placed by default, since they are not needed much. However, since many people are used to traditional OpenTTD signalling in which single signals are one-way, I think that creating a new patch setting in which you can select the default behavior might be the best solution. On the other hand, this could be confusing because the default signals would then not work with terminal stations.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:29 pm 
Offline
TTDPatch Developer
TTDPatch Developer

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:06 am
Posts: 10285
Tekky wrote:
I see no point in having additional PBS-pre-signals because PBS-signals have similar behavior as pre-signals. As long as you only place signals before and not after junctions (in contrast to traditional OpenTTD signalling), there should be no need for having pre-signals.
This is exactly what Hackykid said about his PBS implementation. It didn't work. People (like other-than-me people) wanted to be able to to PBS *without* any presignal-like behaviour: "Enter the block as soon as possible. I don't care whether your desired block-exit signal is red or green, there's only one way out of the block. You aren't going to get any more choices by waiting, and you're not going to block something else that could get out a different exit. Now get! Go!"

_________________
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
Projects: NFORenum (download) | PlaneSet (Website) | grfcodec (download) | grfdebug.log parser


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:45 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:20 pm
Posts: 89
Dalestan,

I have played with this new PBS system whole afternoon, and I think this is kind of missunderstanding. I think that the point of this PBS implementation is is not making all signals work as presignals. Now the signal says "if you can safely continue through the block your way, you have green. If it is not safe to continue your way, red", which is making concept of presignals and standard signals obsolete - mainly because there are no exit signals of the block and there is no testing whenever somewhere is red or green. The only criterium is safe way through the block to destination. In fact I am not able to imagine situation, where I would want train enter a block without knowing where and how would it exit. Can you give an example?


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 4:59 pm
Posts: 2789
I really don't understand the arguments, and I cant build the patch w/BuildOTTD to have a go (Vista :s), so sorry if I repeat what hsa been said, BUT:

You have to consider the "target audience".
Beginners want PBS, and often expect normal signals to work as if they were PBS signals. Simple is always better, and keeping beginners happy is always good too... Therefore PBS signals which can be chucked around the place (with no pre-signal behaviour) and just work is a must. You should just be able to "switch PBS on" for an entire rail network and have it work.

I would also like to see a patch setting which places PBS signals instead of normal signals by default. Because PBS signals essentially are normal signals, but better, this would make sense...

_________________
GRVTS/eGRVTS --- Generic Tram Set --- UK Town Set --- zBase ---RichardWheeler.net


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:12 pm 
Offline
Route Supervisor
Route Supervisor

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:24 am
Posts: 420
I agree fully with MarkyParky that presignals are now obsolete.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:17 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 12:29 pm
Posts: 319
Location: Sheffield, England
It appears we all had a problem with numbers :D

Putting it through BuildOTTD now.

_________________
Rasing Awareness: Aspergers Syndrome 1 (NAS UK)2 (BBC)3 (YaleDDC)


Something is driving you insane... It is me.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:25 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:21 pm
Posts: 2363
Location: Up North
I dont know whether it would help at all, but my NewGRF_ports airport code now includes a fully working block reservation and release system akin to PBS. OK it doesnt calculate the A-B path - but just reads it from the FSM, but the effect is Path Based routing.

From my experience with airports I would expect that there are two principal requirements:
1) each block has a reservation map of some description so that it can say if a segment is reserved.
2) each train has a list of the segments it owns in the current block.

From 1) a new train can evaluate whether it can reserve its route across the block.
From 2) a train can ensure that the block reservations are cleared correctly when it exits the block. (Very important and totally overlooked in previous airport scheme.)

You may also need a 3) each block has a list of the trains that own segments in the current block. This allows simple cleanups to be made. In my airports code, if an aircraft over-reserves (pretty unlikely), then all its reservations are cleared when it either goes into the hangar or takes off. This ensures that no airport segment can remain blocked forever (unless you really screw up the FSM!!! :) ).

_________________
OTTD NewGRF_ports. Add an airport design via newgrf.Superceded by Yexo's NewGrf Airports 2
Want to organise your trains? Try Routemarkers.
--- ==== --- === --- === ---
Firework Photography


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:37 pm 
Offline
Route Supervisor
Route Supervisor

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:24 am
Posts: 420
@richk67: In your last post, you made two references to "FSM". What does that stand for? The OpenTTD wiki doesn't have any entry on that name.


Last edited by Tekky on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:50 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon

Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 4:21 pm
Posts: 2363
Location: Up North
Tekky wrote:
@richk67: In your last post, you made two references to "FSM". What does that stand for?

Finite State Machine... basically the preprogrammed route instructions for aircraft movement.

_________________
OTTD NewGRF_ports. Add an airport design via newgrf.Superceded by Yexo's NewGrf Airports 2
Want to organise your trains? Try Routemarkers.
--- ==== --- === --- === ---
Firework Photography


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:05 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 9:07 pm
Posts: 1710
Location: Czech Republic
Zephyris wrote:
You should just be able to "switch PBS on" for an entire rail network and have it work.


We now have "convert railtype" to convert between maglevs, monorails and ordinary tracks, so we could have similar tool "convert signal type" to convert between normal signals and PBS. This would do for that "switch PBS on for entire network" - you can do it only on part too if you wish ...

_________________
If you need something, do it yourself or it will be never done.

My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:12 pm 
Offline
TTDPatch Developer
TTDPatch Developer

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:06 am
Posts: 10285
MarkyParky wrote:
In fact I am not able to imagine situation, where I would want train enter a block without knowing where and how would it exit. Can you give an example?

Consider a one-way ro-ro station. For the station-entrance block, which splits from on track into many platforms, you want the train to wait before entering the block if it can't find a green signal/empty platform. Presignals were invented to fill this purpose, and they do it quite well.

For the station exit block, which mashes all the platforms back to a single track, you want the train to enter the block immediately upon having the block clear, despite the fact that the signal through which it (and every other train) will exit that block is still red. This is not a presignal-type behaviour.

_________________
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
Projects: NFORenum (download) | PlaneSet (Website) | grfcodec (download) | grfdebug.log parser


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:41 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm
Posts: 578
Location: Berlin, Germany
DaleStan wrote:
Consider a one-way ro-ro station. For the station-entrance block, which splits from on track into many platforms, you want the train to wait before entering the block if it can't find a green signal/empty platform. Presignals were invented to fill this purpose, and they do it quite well.

For the station exit block, which mashes all the platforms back to a single track, you want the train to enter the block immediately upon having the block clear, despite the fact that the signal through which it (and every other train) will exit that block is still red. This is not a presignal-type behaviour.


Like this you mean? No presignals needed.

Attachment:
Chonston Transport, 23rd Sep 1949.png
Chonston Transport, 23rd Sep 1949.png [ 36.76 KiB | Viewed 3499 times ]

MarkyParky wrote:
Regarding the bug, I have posted: It occures only when there is at least one free tile between platform and exit signal from platform. If you place signal right after the platform, patch is working fine.

A bug fix for this is on its way, please hold on for a moment.

-- Michael Lutz

_________________
-- Michael Lutz


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:47 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:03 pm
Posts: 8
looks cool!

can anyone make a .grf file for windows?


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:58 pm 
Offline
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 02, 2007 12:29 pm
Posts: 319
Location: Sheffield, England
I've compiled, played and I'm impressed :) Fired an an old coop save and changed a couple of the stations so it was PBS'd and only had one crash, no idea why but didn't have any other crashes :) Going to go play with it some more now :)

_________________
Rasing Awareness: Aspergers Syndrome 1 (NAS UK)2 (BBC)3 (YaleDDC)


Something is driving you insane... It is me.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:01 pm 
Offline
TTDPatch Developer
TTDPatch Developer

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:06 am
Posts: 10285
Michi_cc wrote:
DaleStan wrote:
Consider a one-way ro-ro station. For the station-entrance block, which splits from on track into many platforms, you want the train to wait before entering the block if it can't find a green signal/empty platform. Presignals were invented to fill this purpose, and they do it quite well.

For the station exit block, which mashes all the platforms back to a single track, you want the train to enter the block immediately upon having the block clear, despite the fact that the signal through which it (and every other train) will exit that block is still red. This is not a presignal-type behaviour.


Like this you mean? No presignals needed.

Then (1) your PBS signals aren't behaving like presignals, and
(2) What happens at a terminus station or a two-way ro-ro, where you do have to have signals on the entrance side of the platform?

_________________
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
Projects: NFORenum (download) | PlaneSet (Website) | grfcodec (download) | grfdebug.log parser


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:03 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2006 6:24 pm
Posts: 602
Location: Durham, UK
One problem with converting signals from normal to PBS is that any trains behind them won't have reserved tracks, so other trains will reserve tracks through them even though the track behind is occupied.

Is it possible to place PBS and normal signals without having to toggle the patch option?

_________________
No-one's more important than the earthworm.


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:48 pm 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer

Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:27 pm
Posts: 578
Location: Berlin, Germany
DaleStan wrote:
Then (1) your PBS signals aren't behaving like presignals, and
(2) What happens at a terminus station or a two-way ro-ro, where you do have to have signals on the entrance side of the platform?


So what if the don't behave like presignals, they do exactly what you described. The entrance signal will only turn green if a platform is free and the signals immediately after the platform turn green as soon as the way to the exit signal is free.

A sample two-way ro-ro station:

Attachment:
File comment: Excuse the unreserved platform at the bottom, letting trains pose for a screenshot isn't that easy 8)
Chonston Transport, 18th Mar 1950.png
Chonston Transport, 18th Mar 1950.png [ 34.95 KiB | Viewed 3378 times ]

Maedhros wrote:
One problem with converting signals from normal to PBS is that any trains behind them won't have reserved tracks, so other trains will reserve tracks through them even though the track behind is occupied.

Yeah, you have to stop the trains and start them by hand again when it's safe. I don't think any effort spent on fixing this is worth it.

Maedhros wrote:
Is it possible to place PBS and normal signals without having to toggle the patch option?

Right now it's not, but the next version will include more patch options so everybody can be happy at the same time.

Warning: This means I will have to break savegame compatibility.

-- Michael Lutz

_________________
-- Michael Lutz


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:21 pm 
Offline
TTDPatch Developer
TTDPatch Developer

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:06 am
Posts: 10285
Michi_cc wrote:
DaleStan wrote:
Then (1) your PBS signals aren't behaving like presignals, and
(2) What happens at a terminus station or a two-way ro-ro, where you do have to have signals on the entrance side of the platform?


So what if the don't behave like presignals,
Then don't say that they behave like presignals.

And I seem to see a presignal flag on some of those PBS signals. I thought you said that presignals wouldn't be needed any more.

_________________
To get a good answer, ask a Smart Question. Similarly, if you want a bug fixed, write a Useful Bug Report. No TTDPatch crashlog? Then follow directions.
Projects: NFORenum (download) | PlaneSet (Website) | grfcodec (download) | grfdebug.log parser


Top
   
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:35 pm 
Offline
Route Supervisor
Route Supervisor

Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:24 am
Posts: 420
The "presignal flag" has a different meaning with these new PBS signals. It is used as a one-way sign.


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 1017 posts ]  Go to page Previous 1 2 3 4 551 Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000-2017 phpBB Limited

Copyright © Owen Rudge/The Transport Tycoon Forums 2001-2017.
Hosted by Zernebok Hosting.