Local authorities

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Master Trams
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Re: Local authorities

Post by Master Trams »

2TallTyler wrote:
21 Jun 2020 21:24
Master Trams wrote:
21 Jun 2020 08:48
Either way, whilst it may not form an addition to the core game, it would be a nice addition, maybe as a NewGRF or a patch...
NewGRFs can't access any of this functionality, but it would be possible with a Game script. Look at Busy Bee or its fork Bee Rewards for inspiration. Here's the Wiki page with information on how to write a Game script. :)
Ok... Yeah, I suppose I could try that. Thanks for clearing up about NewGRFs and GameScripts.

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MagicBuzz
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Re: Local authorities

Post by MagicBuzz »

LaChupacabra wrote:
01 Jan 2020 19:48
What seems to be the biggest problem is to much negative impact of removing trees.
I'm not sure this is more absurd than getting positive feelings by planting big tree forests everywhere...

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L. Spooner Inc
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Re: Local authorities

Post by L. Spooner Inc »

MagicBuzz wrote:
14 Jul 2020 13:58
I'm not sure this is more absurd than getting positive feelings by planting big tree forests everywhere...
Especially when you instantly surround the entire town with massive old-growth forest overnight like the March of the Ents.

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Re: Local authorities

Post by LaChupacabra »

MagicBuzz wrote:
14 Jul 2020 13:58
I'm not sure this is more absurd than getting positive feelings by planting big tree forests everywhere...
I would not call the euphoric reactions of local authorities to the planting of new trees absurd. They are a bit over-expressive, but they don't make it difficult for anyone to play.
It is different with the reaction to cutting down trees - here they behave like some eco-psychopaths. You remove a few trees and they are already giving you a default death sentence, preventing any activity - this is absurd!

Some time ago I remembered again how much I hate this idiocy. Sorry for the harsh words, but this is a really badly balanced element of the game. No matter what setting you choose, in any case you must play with this absurdity.
you build - you can't - you remove trees - you plant trees - you build - you can't - you remove trees - you plant trees... and again, and again, and again... For whats is this pointless ritual?

Even a road near the city cannot be built. Last time this was what I built for myself to connect two cities. When I wanted to add a stop in the city, it turned out that I couldn't because ... I built a road to it! This is idiotic! Why does every construction of a station, rail or road next to a city have to cause appaling rating?! Why is this setting of local authorities dead and doesn't change anything? Why does the equation or flooding the entire map have no effect on the rating and why removing a few trees causes such extreme reactions?

An example of an absurd reaction from local "authorities":
Not happening yet
Local assholes sleeping.PNG
Local assholes sleeping.PNG (222.46 KiB) Viewed 582 times
I built only roads connecting cities, nothing else
Local asshole woke up.gif
Local asshole woke up.gif (554.88 KiB) Viewed 582 times
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.

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MagicBuzz
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Re: Local authorities

Post by MagicBuzz »

This GS I just released could interest you: you don't need to build roads between towns anymore, MagicGS does it for you.
- No bad ratings anymore
- Roads doesn't belong to a company, so you can remove/modify them

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=87330

LaChupacabra
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Re: Local authorities

Post by LaChupacabra »

MagicBuzz wrote:
16 Jul 2020 22:37
This GS I just released could interest you: you don't need to build roads between towns anymore, MagicGS does it for you.
It's not just only about roads. What about railroads, stations, airports (on the outskirts of the city that need a connection to the center - after construction of the airport, you won't be able to do anything else because these "stupid" trees) or even roads to enterprises (you will build a road to supply the factory, but you will not build a receiving station anymore - the fact that you operate the station will not affect the company's rating, because its label is too far to any buildings)?

No, neither your script, nor Eternal Love by jfs, nor any other script will solve or fix this problem. On this topic, the scripts are like a third leg prosthesis, made only because the patient has broken the leg which he already has. No prosthesis is needed here, only the treatment of what is and is good, but it is not working properly.

Regarding the excessive impact of logging, it would be enough to change one parameter: -5 instead of -35. As long as the change would not cause any compatibility issues, it would be incomparably easier and better than any script.

Of course, the changes in theme of local authorities and its impact could go further: the impact of the actions taken could be different for each setting; a negative rating could have an impact on the costs of these activities; a friendlier attitude could make local authorities forget about negative activities of the company faster. The question is, has anyone thought about it, to do something about it?
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.

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2TallTyler
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Re: Local authorities

Post by 2TallTyler »

LaChupacabra wrote:
19 Jul 2020 10:27
Of course, the changes in theme of local authorities and its impact could go further: the impact of the actions taken could be different for each setting; a negative rating could have an impact on the costs of these activities; a friendlier attitude could make local authorities forget about negative activities of the company faster. The question is, has anyone thought about it, to do something about it?
It may not be a question of if anyone has had the idea, but whether there is enough of a consensus to change an original behavior inherited from TTD and well-known to players. These changes aren’t made lightly, but they are possible: for example, two recent changes include the switch from cubic to linear passenger generation or blocking train stations from serving oil rigs.

One fact which may support a change is that the permissive/hostile setting for local authorities currently only changes the rating required to build a station or bulldoze roads or houses. I could see a case for also having this setting affect how much rating is lost when clearing a tree tile. (The rating loss for clearing a house is set by the house NewGRF so changing this may be less desirable.)

https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_mechanics ... ity_rating

I’d appreciate some thoughts from those who’ve been involved in previous changes to base game mechanics.

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odisseus
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Re: Local authorities

Post by odisseus »

Well, I like the local authorities the way they currently work. In the multiplayer games, they perform a very important task of preventing malicious players from destroying the map. On the other hand, if you are playing a single game and want to have the freedom to destroy the map, the existing game script will arrange that for you.

Actually, building infrastructure (especially airports, but also railways and yes, even roads) usually attracts opposition from the local dwellers IRL as well. So does clearing trees, even far from towns. If you want to start big construction near a place where people live, you'd better build some credit with them first (by providing services), appease the local eco-activists (by planting lots of trees), or be prepared to bribe your way.

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L. Spooner Inc
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Re: Local authorities

Post by L. Spooner Inc »

odisseus wrote:
19 Jul 2020 15:41
If you want to start big construction near a place where people live, you'd better build some credit with them first (by providing services), appease the local eco-activists (by planting lots of trees), or be prepared to bribe your way.
The problem is the game doesn't provide any way to do this. In the real world, developers can throw enough money at homeowners to clear entire neighbourhoods when they need to build a shopping mall or something. In the game, you can either drop an entire old-growth forest on top of a town overnight (for a few tens of thousands) or repeatedly bribe a town for millions and millions of dollars, with a chance of failure at which point you've not only lost your millions but removed the possibility of using that method again. And Amun-Ra help you if you need to level land before putting in a station or airport, because you'll spend literal and actual decades waiting for the town to forgive you enough to actually put the station in you levelled the land to build.

Local authorities don't work, either from a simulation perspective or a game mechanic perspective. Consider how utterly insane it is that you can often run out of places to put trees before the town will forgive you for cutting down trees. You literally run out of places to put trees. Every square inch of town property for miles around is now wall to wall with old-growth forest to the point where no one can move without squeezing between tree trunks... and they still hate you for cutting down some trees.

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odisseus
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Re: Local authorities

Post by odisseus »

Just send in some buses before you p*** off the authorities. In a couple years, they will love you again.

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Re: Local authorities

Post by Timberwolf »

My playstyle over the last 26 years has gone through three distinct approaches to local authorities:

1. Anger: whenever a town refused to let me build (and/or refused bribes) I'd bypass it, surround it by rails to stop it growing, route all my industrial tracks past it to punish the residents, and so on.
2. Game mechanic abuse: once I figured out that stations were the critical part and I could build what I liked once those were in place, I'd put down my stations first then destroy the local area terraforming a perfectly flat, treeless plain for my tracks. I then learnt about trees so added the step of demolishing and replanting vast rectangles of trees (sometimes clearing them again afterward if the town had annoyed me).
3. Acceptance: in the last couple of years I've started to work with the mechanic rather than against it - setting up small, frequent local services in towns first to build up my rating, and respecting the landscape early on until I have enough "trust" to start blasting 2L/2R mainlines through the suburbs. Of course every once in a while I'll bump into a town that got a 4-way industrial backbone junction next door before I had chance to supply any other transport, but it feels reasonable for the local authority to hate my company in this case!

Of these, I find the last to have been the most challenging and rewarding, even if it means smaller profits and a less immediately efficient network.

Personally if I was changing anything these days I'd put a cooldown timer on the tree planting bonus, it's quite easy to exploit your way instantly to Mediocre by demolishing and rebuilding trees and it's a lot more reliable than bribes. In terms of game mechanics I like the idea that you can have an absolute juggernaut of a company with billions in the bank, but you still can't steamroller your way into a town who love their local transport company.

LaChupacabra
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Re: Local authorities

Post by LaChupacabra »

odisseus wrote:
19 Jul 2020 15:41
In the multiplayer games, they perform a very important task of preventing malicious players from destroying the map.
It's an illusion that you have fallen into. :rolleyes: You can equate the entire map to the sea level, you can clear all rivers, lakes, even all seas, you can destroy another companies vehicles with impunity, you can block their ports, you can demolish entire cities, and the local authorities will not stop you in any way. Finally, they'll say you're awesome if you just plant some trees. You can give a sh** on everyone and everything, and it'll be ok as it is. But when you want to calmly build a connection, it will not be ok.
odisseus wrote:
19 Jul 2020 15:41
if you are playing a single game and want to have the freedom to destroy the map, the existing game script will arrange that for you.
Scripts have several major disadvantages:
1. Only one script can be selected - by selecting the one for the local authority, you will not be able to use that for city development, taxes and any other.
2. You cannot change the script in the already started game
3. Most scripts used in online games will not work when the game is loaded and continued offline.
4. Along with game updates, the scripts often stop working properly - an example is the RCG script, with problems since version 1.8.0
5. The mechanism of the Eternal Love script is not suitable for online play - it has been improved in the RVG script, but its operation is still troublesome.
odisseus wrote:
19 Jul 2020 15:41
If you want to start big construction...
Big construction? 21 road/track tiles is a big construction for you?? You are ambitious! ;) Do you know that this is enough to prevent yourself to building a station?
odisseus wrote:
20 Jul 2020 13:06
Just send in some buses before you p*** off the authorities. In a couple years, they will love you again.
This style of play is good for someone who has no idea for the game so he doing whatever. If someone has an idea for a larger company, the constant play with building stops in every city or removing and planting trees is no longer fun. It's not difficult, it's just boring. Instead of having to deal with building your network, you have to deal with logic-free game mechanisms. It is all the more pointless as all activities other than cutting down trees, which really destroy the map and the game for others, do not affect the rating.
odisseus wrote:
19 Jul 2020 15:41
Actually, building infrastructure (especially airports, but also railways and yes, even roads) usually attracts opposition from the local dwellers IRL as well. So does clearing trees, even far from towns.
As for airports, you already have the appropriate restriction. Construction of roads or tracks should attracts opposition? You're building the city's only connection with the rest of the world, and the townspeople are going to hate you for that?! You can't even calmly do a dirt road to the forest away from the city. Everywhere you have to build according to a cumbersome scheme, first the station - then the road. Any construction near the city ends with an appalling rating. Local authorities do not fulfill their role and do not prevent abuses. Instead, they just hinder the normal game.
2TallTyler wrote:
19 Jul 2020 12:32
One fact which may support a change is that the permissive/hostile setting for local authorities currently only changes the rating required to build a station or bulldoze roads or houses.
This is what can be use. For those who don't want change, nothing will change, because the difference between the settings is practically none. Thanks to this, one can configure these values ​​so that this setting really changes something and everyone will find something for themselves.
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.

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