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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 am 
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Hello,

I never uploaded anything on BaNaNaS, so I don't know how it works from a developper view.

But as a final user, I have some feedback :

First : big mess up
There are many v1, v2, v12, fork, fix and other sub/new/add versions of many GRF.
As a result, when we search a file, we have a bunch of different versions and namesakes so we don't know wich one is the "good one".
Developpers should not be able to upload a new version of the same GRF with another ID.

Second : not up to date
Some newgrf are getting old on BaNaNaS, while there are newer versions with fixes available from the forums.
I don't know why developpers don't upload it as soon as they release a new version. I think it should be improved to get more updates.

Third : can't manually get an old version
On the newgrf list, we can't choose the version of the newgrf. It downloads the last one.
But if we open an old savegame using an older version of the newgrf, the old version is downloaded automatically.
Why not allowing the user to list all version of the GRF and let him to choose which one to download and use ?

Fourth : when did it updated ? what's new ?
In the description of newgrf, there is no release date (should be the upload date on BaNaNaS) nor the changelog since the previous version. The user downloads upgrades, but he doesn't have any idea of the contents of the update.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:31 am 
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I don't have any details to share at this time, but I do know that all of this is being addressed with a future re-write of Bananas.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Bananas has always been intended to be as complete a repository as possible; not a curated collection policed for quality. The more restrictions and conditions we put on uploading, the less inclined people will be to use it and the less useful it will be.

MagicBuzz wrote:
Developpers should not be able to upload a new version of the same GRF with another ID.

If it has a different ID it is, by definition, not the same GRF.

Quote:
I think it should be improved to get more updates.

We can't force anyone to submit their work.

Quote:
Why not allowing the user to list all version of the GRF and let him to choose which one to download and use ?

Didn't you just complain about 'a bunch of different versions and namesakes so we don't know wich one is the "good one"'?

Quote:
In the description of newgrf, there is no release date (should be the upload date on BaNaNaS) nor the changelog since the previous version.

Changelogs, readmes, and links to webpages can be included in Bananas uploads (as well as being coded directly into NewGRFs), and OpenTTD has buttons in the download window which will display them. Authors failing to include this information is not the system's fault.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:40 pm 
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PikkaBird wrote:
Didn't you just complain about 'a bunch of different versions and namesakes so we don't know wich one is the "good one"'?

There is a difference between X different GRF that indicates they are different version of the same GRF, and only one GRF availeble (in the detail window) in different versions.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 12:47 pm 
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PikkaBird wrote:
Bananas has always been intended to be as complete a repository as possible; not a curated collection policed for quality. The more restrictions and conditions we put on uploading, the less inclined people will be to use it and the less useful it will be.

Wikipedia intends to be as complete as possible, open to any contributor, and it isn't incompatible with the fact that any article is reviewed, commented and fixed.

Right now, I don't know how it works with bananas, but it looks like any one can't upload any newgrf.
=> It is not open.
If you release a GRF and don't upload it, any one could be able to do it. Then if you disagree for any reason, you can ask to remove the GRF.
Right now, it looks like to not be the way it works.

As a result, the final user is lost, and all that bananas will gain, is that people argue with outdated grfs, and they must find grf by their own with some randomness chances of success.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:15 pm 
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MagicBuzz wrote:
PikkaBird wrote:
Bananas has always been intended to be as complete a repository as possible; not a curated collection policed for quality. The more restrictions and conditions we put on uploading, the less inclined people will be to use it and the less useful it will be.

Wikipedia intends to be as complete as possible, open to any contributor, and it isn't incompatible with the fact that any article is reviewed, commented and fixed.

Right now, I don't know how it works with bananas,

Please try to understand how it works. Makes discussion easier for all.

Quote:
but it looks like any one can't upload any newgrf.
=> It is not open.

What is your definition of open? A thing similar to pirate bay? Or a thing similar to Google or apple app store? Or something else: then how?

We cannot offer a service which enables copyright violations - that's a risk no-one is going to take. So the restriction "only your own work. And ban from our services on violation of that condition" is not something we will discuss. It's open to any genuine creator, though. Any those do use it. If the favourite NewGRF of yours is NOT found there: approach the author(s). Talk to him or her. Or become a collaborator (being the 'release manager' for it with the author's consent - who would argue with that?).

By all means though: nothing is written yet or set in stone. So please come forward with concrete suggestions on what the UI should like for both, users ingame, from the website and for authors for upload. An overall idea and vision visualized, sketches of UI would certainly be helpful. Or a list of things which are needed where. What needs filtering / searching for etc.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Pretty simple approach : bananas is a content manager, like the forum is, or github is.

If I post on the forum something that violates the forum rules or some obvious laws, my messages will be removed and I may be banned from the forum.
If I push on github something that violates the github rules or some obvious laws, my contributions will be removed and I may be banned from github.

But on the forum and on github, I perfectly can share things that are not my own.
And there are both moderators and developers that can review what I posted, validate it, refuse it, or ask me for proof of legitimity.

Bananas could beneficiate of the same approach.
All contributors don't take the time to publish their work, nor filling all the changelog, description and other qualification fields correctly.
If any user can upload/fix files, changelog, etc. they could take the time contributors don't have.
A validation of the uploaded/fixed elements may garantuate there is no law violation, no broken, rules, and some consistency in the way the newgrf are described and evolve.

Some exemples of WTF versions :

Attachment:
bananas1.png
bananas1.png [ 32.55 KiB | Viewed 1232 times ]

Aus becomes Auz ? Where are part 1 & 2 of Auz ?
Why explicitely obsolete files are shown ?
Should I use the other Au? Stations files ?

Attachment:
bananas2.png
bananas2.png [ 3.48 KiB | Viewed 1232 times ]

Should I take the "av8 Aviators Aircraft Sets" or the "av8 Aviators Aircraft Sets" ? Why are those two file 2 different versions ? The old version is more stable ?
If there is a grf for "extra aircraft", why it there also a 9.8 ? Is that the same newgrf but newer ? Something else ?

Attachment:
bananas3.png
bananas3.png [ 6.31 KiB | Viewed 1232 times ]

In the newgrf detail, I think it should be usefulle to display the list of versions of the newgrf. We could prefer to use an old version, the last released, the lasted beta, etc.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:15 pm 
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There is a situation where the original author of the graphic is no longer active for many years, and someone else wants to continue his work, but he can not record it under the original identification but have to create his own. Better would be a system where, if the author has not signed up for bananas for many years, he should be canceled and his work should be available to everyone.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Article 13 will make this very interesting eh. :twisted:

The rest of this discussion seems to be 'I would like a magic pony'.

There are no magic ponies.

cheers

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:46 pm 
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Removing obsolete files is magic pony ?
Asking authors to write a changelog is magic pony ?
Opening bananas upload system to new author when the main author of a grf file is inactive is magic pony ?
Asking someone to take a few minutes to review upload before publishing them ingame is magic pony ?

You're right. I just even wonder why OpenTTD exists. It's magic pony too. Original Transport Tycoon was doing the job great. It works well in Windows 95, any newer version of Windows is magic pony. This forum is magic pony too, IRC is so better.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:57 pm 
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MagicBuzz wrote:
Removing obsolete files is magic pony ?

Breaks old savegames.

Quote:
Asking authors to write a changelog is magic pony ?

There's already an option to add a changelog. If authors don't want to use it they can't be forced.

Quote:
Opening bananas upload system to new author when the main author of a grf file is inactive is magic pony ?

Reasonable request.

Somewhat Bananas can do this, FIRS has been uploaded from multiple accounts, but it's unclear how that works. Not sure if anybody actually knows.

Can cause copyright dramas.

Quote:
Asking someone to take a few minutes to review upload before publishing them ingame is magic pony ?

What would they be reviewing? How would the review queue work? What's the service level agreement on response time? Who takes the legal liability as publisher in this case?

Quote:
This forum is magic pony too, IRC is so better.

Most of the development of OpenTTD takes place via irc. Very little takes place via these forums. So yes, in some ways, IRC is better.

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Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:58 pm 
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Bananas isn't curated. Each author can organize their files, and hide or obsolete them, but we are not the right people to be making decisions on behalf of authors.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:54 pm 
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This might already be a thing we have but can NewGRFs be put in folders or be grouped? For example, the above mentioned Aus/Auz stations. If we had a folder, and then within that we could select the version relevant to us (for backward compatibility or such), that could perhaps clean up the overall appearance. It would still require authors to group their uploads, but could help improve what is perceived as confusing for the average user.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:23 pm 
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MagicBuzz wrote:
Should I take the "av8 Aviators Aircraft Sets" or the "av8 Aviators Aircraft Sets" ? Why are those two file 2 different versions ? The old version is more stable ?

The two versions of av8 have something to do with compatibility - I don't remember what. But clicking on either enables the "website" button in the gui. Clicking the button opens this page in your browser, which includes a full changelog.

Quote:
If there is a grf for "extra aircraft", why it there also a 9.8 ? Is that the same newgrf but newer ? Something else ?

Both these newgrfs have pretty informative descriptions right there in the info window, as well as links to their repsective websites (av9.8 links to this forum thread). But if you expect to intuitively understand exactly what every NewGRF does and whether you should download it from the title alone, well, I'm not sure how we provide that for you.

MagicBuzz wrote:
Bananas could beneficiate of the same approach.
All contributors don't take the time to publish their work, nor filling all the changelog, description and other qualification fields correctly.
If any user can upload/fix files, changelog, etc. they could take the time contributors don't have.
A validation of the uploaded/fixed elements may garantuate there is no law violation, no broken, rules, and some consistency in the way the newgrf are described and evolve.

Tools for cooperative development and publishing of NewGRFs exist, most notably the Development Zone at https://dev.openttdcoop.org/. It is not for Bananas to replicate that function, and nor should we restrict uploading to Bananas to cooperative projects.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:39 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
Quote:
Opening bananas upload system to new author when the main author of a grf file is inactive is magic pony ?

Reasonable request.

Somewhat Bananas can do this, FIRS has been uploaded from multiple accounts, but it's unclear how that works. Not sure if anybody actually knows.


You cannot do that via web interface. But as soon as you use musa, you can use the author field and add additional authors or rather OpenTTD logins. Each author quoted in the bananas.ini file used for upload by musa subsequently is added to the access list to allow managing that NewGRF. So in my personal bananas.ini I always add the openttdcoop account (from the newgrf build service) as well so that there is in case of doubt someone else who could access them without too much hassle (and e.g. FIRS seems to have been uploaded at least a few times by that account, too):

Code:
authors = planetmaker, openttdcoop

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:48 am 
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Here is what I would like to see, if we're making pony lists.

While Bananas isn't currently a curated collection, I would like to see such a functionality included. It would be beneficial if there were a group of volunteers who have the ability to be able to edit and modify information about what is being distributed. For example, if an author didn't link their package to a website or a discussion forum, didn't create a readme file explicitly named "readme.txt", thing like that, should be able to be updated without modifying the uploaded package itself.

I'd like to filter a list of NewGRFs by name, author, or content type (airplanes, trains, music, etc).

I had a whole list of stuff someplace, and now I can't find it. I'll get back to it later. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:26 am 
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I most agree it needs a filter search .When I started playing it was the place to go to .My opinion now is it is a dumping ground , just a chaos of files ,no organisation whatever ,When I search for a GRF file I require I either look here ..http://rsync.nl.gentoo.org/pub/games/op ... as/newgrf/ , Grf's , AI , Scenario's ...... all separated and Alphabetized , ok not updated as often or missing updates at least it's easier to use , or use the net , Google is a great tool for finding info , a few letters in the search box can result in tons of info , I am so surprised at times at the amount of people that do not use this tool .Anyway enough of me blabings , hope one day the Fruit Store gets it self sorted out .


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:12 am 
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piratescooby wrote:
I most agree it needs a filter search.

I totally agree a filter is needed. Just curious, is the current filter broken? Not easy to find? Or something else?


Attachments:
bananas_filter.png
bananas_filter.png [ 206.27 KiB | Viewed 657 times ]

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FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:07 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
piratescooby wrote:
I most agree it needs a filter search.

I totally agree a filter is needed. Just curious, is the current filter broken? Not easy to find? Or something else?


I wonder about the very same question actually.

While I'm not sure whether we should modify anything uploaded by an author, there maybe is chance to improve the search system - as that does not necessarily mean to change anything. It *does* support use of keywords (called tags) - but their use is... lacking and incorherent at best. Maybe at that place some kind of curating-approach could be taken, so that for different such keywords a search is possible. One could think of a few categories.
NewGRF Type: industry, houses, landscape, tracks, roads, bridges, trains, road vehicles, ships, aircraft
AI Type: general, train, road, ship, aircraft, eye candy
Game Script: city builder, ... ?
Scenario: ...?
height map:: ...?

I would leave very specialized searches to the tags as they exist, thus would need to be entered explicitly in the search box (e.g. the NARS andy mentioned. Or like 'dutch' or 'czech' or 'ussr' when searching for everything related to their respective rains, stations, ... etc)

Would it make sense to include a user rating of the NewGRF? How would one want to implement it? How to make sure that people do not spoof the system and vote zillion times to boost or vote-down something whose author they like or dislike? Can we think of binding such votes to an OpenTTD account? Do we actually *want* that? And if so: how much hassle would that be (I assume a LOT... OpenTTD would need to gain a sign-on system, which means dealing with passwords... security concerns come into play. Or can you only vote on the website when logged-in? And OpenTTD gains a link to the website like it does already when showing detailed content info?).

Everything in this posting is strictly my personal opinion alone, thinking aloud and not necessarily everything thought-through.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:38 am 
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planetmaker wrote:
andythenorth wrote:
Do we actually *want* that?


No, I don't think we do want that. GRF making would become Reddit.


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