Separate road and tram stop sprites

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kamnet
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Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by kamnet » 28 May 2018 18:31

I raised this issue over on the bug tracker, hoping it would be an easy, "common sense" fix by devs. https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/6799

Apparently not. :( So I'll raise it here to generate some awareness and discussion.

Since TTDPatch there have been graphics in the base graphics set for separate sprites for road vehicle and tram stops, but these graphics were never implemented. Instead both use the same set of sprites, and this carried over into OpenTTD.

There should be a way for NewGRF road vehicle sets and tram sets to implement independent graphics for one that do not affect the other.

Frosh raised this issue:
frosch wrote:The reason is simple: Which sprites to use for shared bus/tram stations?
My answer for this: which ever one was initially built. If you build a RV station, and later run a tram through it, all you're doing is adding tram tracks and catenary. If you build a tram station and later run a road through it, you're just adding the road surface. You don't need to update the graphics to reflect that. If the player wants the tram stop instead of the RV stop, they can overbuild on it with the appropriate tool.

It would be nice if you could somehow have a third option for a combined RV/tram stop, with a player deciding between the three options, but it's not necessary and I don't even know how feasible that is. I'll be satisfied if you can just have separate graphics.

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by Pyoro » 28 May 2018 18:36

In FantasyWorld(tm), road stations would "simply" have the same kind of support as railstations have, and you could pick from however many GRFs you've loaded ^^;

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by acs121 » 28 May 2018 21:15

Pyoro wrote:In FantasyWorld(tm), road stations would "simply" have the same kind of support as railstations have, and you could pick from however many GRFs you've loaded ^^;
After Newstations, Newstops !
(That's the dream of any OpenTTD player though.)
Newstops would be better in aesthetics. I don't really like seeing those JCDecaux bus stops from the 70's in 1700s when i started usage of horse carriages.

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by kamnet » 28 May 2018 23:26

acs121 wrote:
Pyoro wrote:In FantasyWorld(tm), road stations would "simply" have the same kind of support as railstations have, and you could pick from however many GRFs you've loaded ^^;
After Newstations, Newstops !
(That's the dream of any OpenTTD player though.)
Newstops would be better in aesthetics. I don't really like seeing those JCDecaux bus stops from the 70's in 1700s when i started usage of horse carriages.
Back to reality - what needs to change in the OpenTTD source code to enable separate RV and tram station sprites?

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by Eddi » 29 May 2018 06:23

kamnet wrote:I raised this issue over on the bug tracker, hoping it would be an easy, "common sense" fix by devs. Frosh raised this issue:
frosch wrote:The reason is simple: Which sprites to use for shared bus/tram stations?
My answer for this: which ever one was initially built. If you build a RV station, and later run a tram through it, all you're doing is adding tram tracks and catenary. If you build a tram station and later run a road through it, you're just adding the road surface. You don't need to update the graphics to reflect that. If the player wants the tram stop instead of the RV stop, they can overbuild on it with the appropriate tool.
i'll sort of have to side with frosch on this, as, as far as the game is concerned, a stop which was first a bus stop and later tram was added is indistinguishable from one that was first a tramstop and then a road was added, or which was a road+tram and a stop was added.

the order of how this was built is not stored, and i find it highly doubtful that it would be a good idea to add this, just for this visual feature.

i agree with the other posters here, the route to take here would be "proper" NewGRF stops, where then the player can decide which station look to build. however, be prepared that the next word you hear in a discussion about that would be "state machines"...
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by acs121 » 29 May 2018 10:13

I can't tell how difficult it was to implement Newstations. Here it's a bit different though...

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by kamnet » 29 May 2018 17:18

Eddi wrote:
kamnet wrote:I raised this issue over on the bug tracker, hoping it would be an easy, "common sense" fix by devs. Frosh raised this issue:
frosch wrote:The reason is simple: Which sprites to use for shared bus/tram stations?
My answer for this: which ever one was initially built. If you build a RV station, and later run a tram through it, all you're doing is adding tram tracks and catenary. If you build a tram station and later run a road through it, you're just adding the road surface. You don't need to update the graphics to reflect that. If the player wants the tram stop instead of the RV stop, they can overbuild on it with the appropriate tool.
i'll sort of have to side with frosch on this, as, as far as the game is concerned, a stop which was first a bus stop and later tram was added is indistinguishable from one that was first a tramstop and then a road was added, or which was a road+tram and a stop was added.

the order of how this was built is not stored, and i find it highly doubtful that it would be a good idea to add this, just for this visual feature.

i agree with the other posters here, the route to take here would be "proper" NewGRF stops, where then the player can decide which station look to build. however, be prepared that the next word you hear in a discussion about that would be "state machines"...
What, exactly, makes it indistinguishable?

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by Pyoro » 29 May 2018 18:13

kamnet wrote:What, exactly, makes it indistinguishable?
? Simply because the necessary information isn't saved as there's no point in doing so?

It's like asking why the game can't differentiate between rails that have been upgraded to electric and rails that have been build as electric right from the start. The "now" state matters, there wasn't any use for the other information so far ^^;

IMO, the "whatever comes first solution" isn't that great anyway. If it's supposed to be "simple", I think there needs to be A roadstop, B tram stop, C combined road and tram stop. If B and C aren't provided the game just displays A.

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Re: Separate road and tram stop sprites

Post by Expresso » 02 Aug 2018 13:08

I think newgrf bus and tram stops is a great idea. Much like railway station newGRFs.

I'm feeling particularly evil today. I think the state machine is a great idea! It could be used by newGRFs to define custom paths for entering and exiting the station as well as (perhaps) a drive through option and a means to shuffle a vehicle of a particular length in the right platform.

This would make using road vehicles all the more interesting.

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