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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:37 pm 
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I'm starting a new discussion in the suggestion forum to talk about RoadTypes and TramTypes (RATT).

THESE ARE NOT YET IN OPENTTD, AND THEY MAY NOT EVER BE. But we do finally have the starts of a spec for both, and a forked copy of OpenTTD to play with. For more information, click here, but keep in mind that it's a discussion about the development of the specs themselves as implemented in OpenTTD code, and I don't want to clutter it with anything that doesn't directly contribute to it. It's why I'm splitting this discussion off.

We've speculated for many years on what to do with RoadTypes. Now we are closer to that, and with the work of Andythenorth, Frosch, and Wolf, we have a spec which specifies 15 RoadTypes AND 15 TramTypes, with a limitation of one type of each per tile. Just like with RailTypes, NewGRF authors will be responsible for designing the new types of paths.

I realize that this discussion is probably going to sprawl all over the place. So with that in mind, I'm going to attempt to keep a summary of discussion and linked replies here in the main post. I won't promise I'll do a good job of it, but I'll give it a try.

WHAT HAS BEEN ACCOMPLISHED SO FAR?
Download binary releases for Linux, MacOS X and Windows.

Andythenorth has posted a RATT-enabled version of Road Hog with two types of road systems and two types of tram systems, with appropriate vehicles, as a sample of how the new feature works.

Supermop has posted OGFX+ Style Trolley Truck and Buses, which provides a new trolley catenary for rubber-tyre vehicles, with the goal of eventually moving it into OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles.

Supermop has posted Docklands provides four roadtypes and four tramtypes with pavements that match the popular ISR and CHIPS NewGRF sets. (Also see the [url=https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=75960]developer thread[/url).

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Last edited by kamnet on Tue Feb 28, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:48 pm 
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[15 types of each - I misled you] :)

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:20 pm 
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So for me, here are some new types I'd like to see:

    Roads
  • Dirt / Gravel / Unimproved Roads - low speed-limited roads for rural areas.
  • Industrial pavement - full-width road tiles that blend in with ISR and other industrial NewGRFs
  • Highways - high speed-limited or unlimited speed roads, full-width tiles to create seamless, functional multi-lane roads
  • Kerb-Guided Busways (KGB) - Buses which can travel on normal roads but also access a limited right-of-way, high-speed express road with curbs and guides.

    Trams
  • Metro, Subway & light rail - More compact, at lower speeds and more frequent stops which make it more compatible with trams than railtypes.
  • Elevated/Suspended monorails - We already have an example of a Wuppertal-style hanging monorail. This could be extended to SAFEGE-style systems as well as lother types.
  • Invisible/"Fake" Subway - We already have an example of this.
  • Trolleybus - We already have an example of this.
  • Cablecar - An example already exists for a rail track, but this would work much better and with smaller and slower vehicles, with no need to worry about signalling.
  • Automated Guideway Transit (AGT) - trams/trains that typically run on rubber tires, but can use other methods, operated on an unmanned guided track

    Other ideas
  • PIPES and WIRES - both already exist as RailTypes, but require signalling and can't mix with other RailTypes. This could work invisibly as "underground" or as visible over ground, or even over an existing road or tram type. Speed and capacity can be massively increased with no worry about "vehicles" colliding.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:32 pm 
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kamnet wrote:
So for me, here are some new types I'd like to see:
    Roads
  • Kerb-Guided Busways (KGB) - Buses which can travel on normal roads but also access a limited right-of-way, high-speed express road with curbs and guides.
I'm not sure how well this would translate into OpenTTD. I live near a large area of guided buses (around Bradford for those interested). They take up a lot of room, don't see all that much use as an unguided vehicle using them would, unless superbly manouvered just mount the ends instead of carefully being guided. I'm assuming you'd also enforce that requirement, that traffic on that road must be guided - in which case all unguided traffic would need a seperate road, so you may have to doubel up on roads, especially if its a portion of town where other cargoes are transferred, unless you make a guided variant of all the cargo vehicles too, which is a bit unfeasible and unrealistic.

As an example image, here is an image of the guideway in Bradford, the guided buses travel in one direction only down the middle of the road, and there is no return guideway for buses going in the other direction. This is what I mean by using a lot of extra tiles. The buses going in the opposite direction would use the red road to the right of the image, which is a bus only lane, further reducing the available space/roads for normal traffic.

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Last edited by Redirect Left on Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:37 pm 
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If roadtypes are to be debated shouldn't the way road vehicles move be debated too? After looking at the RAWR project it more and more hurts my eyes to see 45 degree corners as being the default way to corner a corner.

I know from the past that arguements against more fluid cornering were assumed lack of support from graphics developers and the effort to change code for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:40 pm 
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Redirect Left wrote:
kamnet wrote:
So for me, here are some new types I'd like to see:
    Roads
  • Kerb-Guided Busways (KGB) - Buses which can travel on normal roads but also access a limited right-of-way, high-speed express road with curbs and guides.
I'm not sure how well this would translate into OpenTTD. I love near a large area of guided buses (around Bradford for those interested). They take up a lot of room, don't see all that much use as an unguided vehicle using them would, unless superbly manouvered just mount the ends instead of carefully being guided. I'm assuming you'd also enforce that requirement, that traffic on that road must be guided - in which case all unguided traffic would need a seperate road, so you may have to doubel up on roads, especially if its a portion of town where other cargoes are transferred, unless you make a guided variant of all the cargo vehicles too, which is a bit unfeasible and unrealistic.

As an example image, here is an image of the guideway in Bradford, the guided buses travel in one direction only down the middle of the road, and there is no return guideway for buses going in the other direction. This is what I mean by using a lot of extra tiles. The buses going in the opposite direction would use the red road to the right of the image, which is a bus only lane, further reducing the available space/roads for normal traffic.


Yep, they do take a lot of space. OzTrans mentioned that when we talked about it several years ago.

One fantasy idea I've thought about is a combined KGB/tram or KGB/AGT corridor, which would separate out dense passenger traffic from cargo.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 10:42 pm 
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Come to think of it: proper one-way tunnels and bridges?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:07 am 
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Hyronymus wrote:
If roadtypes are to be debated shouldn't the way road vehicles move be debated too? After looking at the RAWR project it more and more hurts my eyes to see 45 degree corners as being the default way to corner a corner. I know from the past that arguements against more fluid cornering were assumed lack of support from graphics developers and the effort to change code for it.

Come to think of it: proper one-way tunnels and bridges?


That's going to be beyond the scope of this discussion. I don't know if anybody is working on the code for that. We have the code for RoadTypes and TramTypes now, documentation for NewGRF specs are coming. This discussion is just to generate discussion among players for what they'd like to see.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:10 am 
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Congrats to Kamnet for starting this discussion. :bow:

Some thoughts to keep in mind:
This seems to be a wish list topic as opposed to set-in-stone criteria.
This would be a good place to float your ideas, to see if there are others willing to team up with you to launch your concept at which point you would start your own topic dedicated to your project.
As seen in andythenorth's topic, the specifications are still very much in flux so we really do not know what we have to work with. Our suggestions might turn out to be impractical or impossible.
I have some thoughts I'd like to float, but I'm going to wait for a concrete set of NewGRF Specifications.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 2:31 pm 
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Is all the types available for road types always hard coded in the game client? Or is that something that people can create as NewGRF, just like rail types?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 4:56 pm 
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Do you want to talk here also about the different features the roadtypes will provide?
For example now with a flag is possible to disable the level crossing for a roadtype.
I'm also working on a flag to make a roadtype unfriendly to houses, so if you build an industrial tramway line houses will not spawn along it if there isn't a near roadtype which is house friendly (normal road) which "fixes" this problem: https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6517
Another feature could be to disallow building a tramway over a particular roadtype or the contrary.

There are even more ideas, not all of them very useful or just some corner cases to handle rare situations (like my "no crossings road" :P)

Sylf wrote:
Is all the types available for road types always hard coded in the game client? Or is that something that people can create as NewGRF, just like rail types?


The client will have only ROAD/ELRD and RAIL/ELRL as hardcoded roadtypes, for the others it will be the same of railtypes

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Last edited by Wolf01 on Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:03 pm 
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Great news! :)

I have a couple of questions, though, about default behaviour. I suppose that, for backward compatibility with existing grfs, the default will be that all road vehicles can run on all types of roads, only with different speed limits as imposed on the present bridges.

I also think that there should be one or two default road types which is what towns build now. It would be great if those could be automatically converted from dirt roads and paved roads to tarmac around 1950.

In addition to the dirt road, as in the American Road Replacement Set (ARRS), I'd also like a plain mud track like in GarryG's AuzObjects, with a very low speed limit like 20 km/h (see picture).


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mud_track.png [ 120.73 KiB | Viewed 2003 times ]

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:09 pm 
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leifbk wrote:
Great news! :)
I have a couple of questions, though, about default behaviour. I suppose that, for backward compatibility with existing grfs, the default will be that all road vehicles can run on all types of roads, only with different speed limits as imposed on the present bridges.

The normal client only have normal road/tramway, all other types and compatibility will be put in grf designers' hands
Quote:
I also think that there should be one or two default road types which is what towns build now. It would be great if those could be automatically converted from dirt roads and paved roads to tarmac around 1950.

I would like that too, I'll look at it and I'll tell if that could be done

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
Quote:
I also think that there should be one or two default road types which is what towns build now. It would be great if those could be automatically converted from dirt roads and paved roads to tarmac around 1950.

I would like that too, I'll look at it and I'll tell if that could be done

Why not let the town roads function as they currently do? After all, the function of this feature is to enable the player to build/upgrade roads at his company's cost and time.

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Last edited by wallyweb on Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:11 pm 
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Currently you aren't allowed to upgrade town owned roads ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:15 pm 
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Wolf01 wrote:
Currently you aren't allowed to upgrade town owned roads ;)
A little dynamite and a bulldozer go a long way. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:45 am 
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wallyweb wrote:
Wolf01 wrote:
Currently you aren't allowed to upgrade town owned roads ;)
A little dynamite and a bulldozer go a long way. :wink:


Untill you bulldoze the seed road tile, and then your town starts dying. :(

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:52 am 
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kamnet wrote:
Untill you bulldoze the seed road tile, and then your town starts dying. :(
That actually sounds realistic. :lol:
How does one find the seed road tile?

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:24 am 
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wallyweb wrote:
How does one find the seed road tile?

It's the one directly beneath the town name.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:46 am 
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For arctic: ploughed roads (no snow = higher speed, but higher maintenance cost)?

For desert: graded roads (no corrugations = higher speed, but higher maintenance cost)?

For towns: traffic-calmed roads, harsh speed limits = have to route trucks around the town?

Curious about ideas that add gameplay variety.

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