New discussion on future RoadTypes and TramTypes

[wallyweb]

For arctic: ploughed roads (no snow = higher speed, but higher maintenance cost)?

This is getting complicated. How would seasonal snow lines affect this? What happens to the higher maintenance costs of a winter road when spring, summer and autumn have arrived? I didn't even know that road maintenance was a factor in the game. Is this something new that you have added? A reality check from a winter challenged Canadian ... Winter road maintenance is highest due to the cost of snow removal ... Spring road maintenance follows due to the cost of repairs required because of winter's damage. Summer and Autumn are relatively easy on road maintenance budgets. I should think that for game play a simple speed penalty should suffice, perhaps a 10% reduction when above the snowline? Snowy roads should not be a roadtype, but rather consigned to a graphical snowline based adjustment to all roadtypes. If maximum speed is a property associated with a variable, then this can be easily implemented by the GRF's coder with some creative varAction2 manipulation.

[NekoMaster]

If anything I just hope to have different Road and Tram types to mix up gameplay, cheaper roads and tramways for beginning or broke companies, and high grade stuff for later to allow express trucks and coaches to run at speed.

Also, like with NuTracks, it'd be nice if a GRF could replace the default roads with something like "City" or "Street" roads that are slower then say, "Highway" Roads, but faster then "Gravel" roads which early and new companies can use to build a fast and cheap intercity network and upgrade Gravel road as needed when possible.

Plus it would be nice if we could maybe have Generational Graphics so that certain road types will look different before and after say, 1950. So "City" Roads may go from Cobble or Stone Bricks to Dark Asphalt.


Also it might be nice to have differnet styles for different climates. I imagine that Sub-Arctic would of course have a smaller set of road types to allow for "Snowy" and "Cleared" types.

Example

Gravel - 20 Km\h (Can't be cleared, so ends up snowy looking above the snow line)

Snowy Streets - 30 Km\h
Cleared Streets - 40 Km\h

Snowy Road - 40 Km\h
Cleared Road - 50 Km\h

Snowy Local Highway - 60 Km\h
Cleared Local Highway - 80 Km\h

Snowy Express Way - 80 Km\h
Snowy Express Way - 100 Km\h

I dunno how this would be handled, but maybe roads are converted automatically to "Snowy" by november above the snow line, but can be converted by the player back to "Cleared" and it'll stay that way until Next winter.

BTW I'm basing these speeds off of Canadian speed limits, mostly around Ontario. We have Local Highways that may only cover a couple of towns or run through the rural area's, while Express ways would be more like HWY 401 (or HWY 407) or the Trans Canada

[Wolf01]

Doing country roads seem to be possible, using city radii (if road is outside of any city radii then is a country road), this is the most simple solution I found.
It should be exposed to work with grf and cached in m6 (to be used for plain road and level crossings) to behave like the current road decorations (trees, lamps).

[wallyweb]

I dunno how this would be handled, but maybe roads are converted automatically to "Snowy" by november above the snow line, but can be converted by the player back to "Cleared" and it'll stay that way until Next winter.

If you have access to some of the Canadian Set stuff, take a look at how the snow is handled. It's all automatic depending upon the current height of the snowline. Player manipulation not required.

Doing country roads seem to be possible, using city radii (if road is outside of any city radii then is a country road), this is the most simple solution I found.
It should be exposed to work with grf and cached in m6 (to be used for plain road and level crossings) to behave like the current road decorations (trees, lamps).

Interesting. You say "radii". Is this the same as Town Zones?
Current Default Roads:
Zone 4 - town built road + sidewalks + lights
Zone 3 - town built road + sidewalks + trees
Zone 2 - town built road + sidewalks
Zone 1 - town built road
Zone 0 - town built road
Local Authority = none - outside town radii - roads built by player

[supermop]

For arctic: ploughed roads (no snow = higher speed, but higher maintenance cost)?

For desert: graded roads (no corrugations = higher speed, but higher maintenance cost)?

For towns: traffic-calmed roads, harsh speed limits = have to route trucks around the town?

Curious about ideas that add gameplay variety.

I'd use a grf with these...

What about pedestrian streets in city centers - can allow house growth, but no RV allowed unless tramway built? Or cobble streets with low speed limit, or city/residential streets trucks forbidden (maybe passenger buses allowed? only vehicles under certain weight allowed?)

[Wolf01]

I dunno how this would be handled, but maybe roads are converted automatically to "Snowy" by november above the snow line, but can be converted by the player back to "Cleared" and it'll stay that way until Next winter.

If you have access to some of the Canadian Set stuff, take a look at how the snow is handled. It's all automatic depending upon the current height of the snowline. Player manipulation not required.

Doing country roads seem to be possible, using city radii (if road is outside of any city radii then is a country road), this is the most simple solution I found.
It should be exposed to work with grf and cached in m6 (to be used for plain road and level crossings) to behave like the current road decorations (trees, lamps).

Interesting. You say "radii". Is this the same as Town Zones?
Current Default Roads:
Zone 4 - town built road + sidewalks + lights
Zone 3 - town built road + sidewalks + trees
Zone 2 - town built road + sidewalks
Zone 1 - town built road
Zone 0 - town built road
Local Authority = none - outside town radii - roads built by player

Yes, town zones, since they are "circles" around town center and I only need to know the distance from road to center and check if outside zone 0, then zone 0 value is the radius

[Hyronymus]

Can that trick also be used with industries: close to an industry the road turns into industrial roads?

[Wolf01]

Can that trick also be used with industries: close to an industry the road turns into industrial roads?

No, what I would achieve is to tell a grf which graphics should provide if in town or outside town without changing the info, industrial road is a type of road and it should be another roadtype, a road inside a town or outside a town will still have the same speed limit or other limitations, it just might change in appearance (like it does now for normal road inside towns)
About what it happen with level crossing graphics.

[leifbk]

a road inside a town or outside a town will still have the same speed limit or other limitations, it just might change in appearance (like it does now for normal road inside towns)

I'm looking forward to see speed limits applied inside populated areas. However, I think that it should still be possible to build high-speed roads through town zones, maybe provided that they don't have any level-crossings with ordinary town roads.

[Wolf01]

a road inside a town or outside a town will still have the same speed limit or other limitations, it just might change in appearance (like it does now for normal road inside towns)

I'm looking forward to see speed limits applied inside populated areas. However, I think that it should still be possible to build high-speed roads through town zones, maybe provided that they don't have any level-crossings with ordinary town roads.

Yes, that would be possible, laying a freeway in a city works the same as in the country, just changes the foundations and maybe shows noise barriers, but it will still have 130kmh (or what you want) as speed limit

[NekoMaster]

I think that if a set provides differnt road types with speed limits, Streets or City Roads with a certain speed limit should replace the default roads, this way by default towns and cities are limited to 40-50 Km\h but if you need to go faster its up to you to build faster roads or even a highway.

[leifbk]

I think that if a set provides differnt road types with speed limits, Streets or City Roads with a certain speed limit should replace the default roads, this way by default towns and cities are limited to 40-50 Km\h but if you need to go faster its up to you to build faster roads or even a highway.

+1, but it should probably be user-configurable in the settings or in the grf parameters.

On the whole, the major feature of the new road types seems to be the ability to set different speed limits. The rest is, more or less, eye-candy.

I suppose that new and updated vehicle sets soon will take advantage of the ability to differentiate between which vehicle types should be able to run where, but please keep backward compatibility and let older road vehicle sets be able to run on any new road type.

[NekoMaster]

I think that if a set provides differnt road types with speed limits, Streets or City Roads with a certain speed limit should replace the default roads, this way by default towns and cities are limited to 40-50 Km\h but if you need to go faster its up to you to build faster roads or even a highway.

+1, but it should probably be user-configurable in the settings or in the grf parameters.

On the whole, the major feature of the new road types seems to be the ability to set different speed limits. The rest is, more or less, eye-candy.

I suppose that new and updated vehicle sets soon will take advantage of the ability to differentiate between which vehicle types should be able to run where, but please keep backward compatibility and let older road vehicle sets be able to run on any new road type.

I'd like to see something like NuTracks with multiple road and tram types, and provides compatibility for older vehicle sets while newer sets of course could define what can run on what. For example, a bus that only goes 60 Km\h may not be suitable for highway usage but a Coach that can do 120 Km\h should be able to run on City Roads or Avenues but not on regular streets (its not often you find a big speedy coach on a small slow street)

[wallyweb]

Yes, town zones, since they are "circles" around town center and I only need to know the distance from road to center and check if outside zone 0, then zone 0 value is the radius

Houses, industries, and alike can query the town zone via VarAction2

Squares of radii of 5 town zones where variable 94 refers to the outermost zone 0 and variable 9C to the inner most zone 4.

Wouldn't it be simpler to check if the road is not in 0 and not in 1 and not in 2 and not in 3 and not in 4 then road must be outside town radii?

[wallyweb]

(its not often you find a big speedy coach on a small slow street)

Come to Saint John during cruise ship season and I'll show you about 5 big speedy coaches a day on my small slow street.

[andythenorth]

please keep backward compatibility and let older road vehicle sets be able to run on any new road type.

Older vehicle sets will default to the ROAD label. To achieve compatibility with any new type, a roadtype grf would include a redefinition of ROAD, making it compatible with any new roadtypes it includes.

However I am unclear why this is beneficial in all cases. As a parallel example, we don't expect railtype grfs to define RAIL as being compatible with narrow gauge rails. Forcing all new roadtypes to allow ROAD vehicles seems to negate the gameplay options for roadtypes somewhat.

Anyway, it's in the hands of grf authors, and there's always the option to make a new or different grf

[wallyweb]

However I am unclear why this is beneficial in all cases. As a parallel example, we don't expect railtype grfs to define RAIL as being compatible with narrow gauge rails. Forcing all new roadtypes to allow ROAD vehicles seems to negate the gameplay options for roadtypes somewhat. )

In as much as this great game tends to mimic reality, trains are definitely restricted to gauge. On the other hand, road vehicles seem quite capable of runnng on any road. A better game play solution would be to encourage the player to select the right vehicle for the job while affording him the opportunity to make a bad decision.

Anyway, it's in the hands of grf authors, and there's always the option to make a new or different grf

[SimYouLater]

So for me, here are some new types I'd like to see:

• Roads
• Dirt / Gravel / Unimproved Roads - low speed-limited roads for rural areas.
• Industrial pavement - full-width road tiles that blend in with ISR and other industrial NewGRFs
• Highways - high speed-limited or unlimited speed roads, full-width tiles to create seamless, functional multi-lane roads
• Kerb-Guided Busways (KGB) - Buses which can travel on normal roads but also access a limited right-of-way, high-speed express road with curbs and guides.

• Trams
• Metro, Subway & light rail - More compact, at lower speeds and more frequent stops which make it more compatible with trams than railtypes.
• Elevated/Suspended monorails - We already have an example of a Wuppertal-style hanging monorail. This could be extended to SAFEGE-style systems as well as lother types.
• Invisible/"Fake" Subway - We already have an example of this.
• Trolleybus - We already have an example of this.
• Cablecar - An example already exists for a rail track, but this would work much better and with smaller and slower vehicles, with no need to worry about signalling.
• Automated Guideway Transit (AGT) - trams/trains that typically run on rubber tires, but can use other methods, operated on an unmanned guided track

• Other ideas
• PIPES and WIRES - both already exist as RailTypes, but require signalling and can't mix with other RailTypes. This could work invisibly as "underground" or as visible over ground, or even over an existing road or tram type. Speed and capacity can be massively increased with no worry about "vehicles" colliding.

May I share some hypothetical plans for the BARRB set? I've worked out a scheme that could potentially let it be the first infrastructure NewGRF to take full advantage of roadtypes.

Roadtypes.pdf

(38.23 KiB) Downloaded 71 times

Of note is that in order to properly support trolleybusses, thecaternary will need to be a tramtype. Otherwise, you cannot build them on competitor's roads, and inter-compatibility with electric trams would be problematic.

However I am unclear why this is beneficial in all cases. As a parallel example, we don't expect railtype grfs to define RAIL as being compatible with narrow gauge rails. Forcing all new roadtypes to allow ROAD vehicles seems to negate the gameplay options for roadtypes somewhat. )

In as much as this great game tends to mimic reality, trains are definitely restricted to gauge. On the other hand, road vehicles seem quite capable of runnng on any road. A better game play solution would be to encourage the player to select the right vehicle for the job while affording him the opportunity to make a bad decision.

Anyway, it's in the hands of grf authors, and there's always the option to make a new or different grf

It should not be required to force road compatibility. Some niche-cases, like guideways for curb-guided busses, need to be a roadtype without compatibility because cars and normal vehicles cannot use them.

[kamnet]

For towns: traffic-calmed roads, harsh speed limits = have to route trucks around the town?

Curious about ideas that add gameplay variety.

You could have parkways, which only allow generic cars and bans all commercial traffic.

May I share some hypothetical plans for the BARRB set? I've worked out a scheme that could potentially let it be the first infrastructure NewGRF to take full advantage of roadtypes.
Roadtypes.pdf

I like some of those. Would like to see the rest of them explained better.

Of note is that in order to properly support trolleybusses, thecaternary will need to be a tramtype. Otherwise, you cannot build them on competitor's roads, and inter-compatibility with electric trams would be problematic.

"Proper" is really all in the mind of the creator. One could just create a set of trams and trolleybuses that all run on the same catenary. You could also build trams as a type of road vehicle instead, provide proper graphics, and mix as you wish. You could definitely be as realistic or unrealistic as you wish.

Roads as canals, for example. Sure, why replace a perfectly-functional canal system that we already have? Well, for one, "boats" could be a heck of a lot faster, and for two, you can have in-line stops on the shores or lorry bays re-made as marinas.

[andythenorth]

Of note is that in order to properly support trolleybusses, thecaternary will need to be a tramtype. Otherwise, you cannot build them on competitor's roads, and inter-compatibility with electric trams would be problematic.

"Proper" is really all in the mind of the creator. One could just create a set of trams and trolleybuses that all run on the same catenary.

In multi-player (or with AI players), a player wouldn't be able to add trolleybus to existing roads belonging to competitors or towns (can't convert if you don't own the tile). In a single player game that's a non-issue of course.

The presence of catenary or not is a little distracting here, it's the roadtype (label) that's significant.