New discussion on future RoadTypes and TramTypes

[adf88]

The speed limits seems to be a must-have. But I have another idea which I think could greatly increase possible variety of NewGRF sets. Vehicles operating on different "levels" like "on ground" "underground" and "overground." Vehicles on different levels would not interfere and could move independently.

Thinking of things like elevated bus, underground metro, gondolas over streets, pipes/wires under...

I know it has been suggested before an that it's an idea for another patch, but I feel that it's a good place and time to remind of this.

[SilverSurferZzZ]

The new Road/Tram types have a new floor level? (Elevated/Suspended monorails, Cablecar...)
If no, in my opinion, it's unnecessary all this (and a really really really really hard work without real improvements for the game).

The only new road type that have (a little bit of) sense, always in my opinion, is the Dirt / Gravel / Unimproved Roads (and never is a vital improvement).

[SimYouLater]

Of note is that in order to properly support trolleybusses, the caternary will need to be a tramtype. Otherwise, you cannot build them on competitor's roads, and inter-compatibility with electric trams would be problematic.

"Proper" is really all in the mind of the creator. One could just create a set of trams and trolleybuses that all run on the same catenary.

In multi-player (or with AI players), a player wouldn't be able to add trolleybus to existing roads belonging to competitors or towns (can't convert if you don't own the tile). In a single player game that's a non-issue of course.

The presence of catenary or not is a little distracting here, it's the roadtype (label) that's significant.

The idea would be that electric trams can only use electrified tram tracks. Non-electric trams can use standard or electrified tram tracks. Trolleybusses can use trolleybus caternary or electrified tram tracks.

The new Road/Tram types have a new floor level? (Elevated/Suspended monorails, Cablecar...)
If no, in my opinion, it's unnecessary all this (and a really really really really hard work without real improvements for the game).

The only new road type that have (a little bit of) sense, always in my opinion, is the Dirt / Gravel / Unimproved Roads (and never is a vital improvement).

Multiple levels could be added, hypothetically. I have no idea how easy it would be. Pipes, power lines, telecom lines, elevated metro, suspended monorail and omnipurpose road are a practical must-have for their various purposes, even without multiple levels, as eventually a town becomes too big to reasonably transport cargo or passengers within them by road, and bulldozing city blocks for trains is counter-productive.

[kamnet]

The new Road/Tram types have a new floor level? (Elevated/Suspended monorails, Cablecar...)
If no, in my opinion, it's unnecessary all this (and a really really really really hard work without real improvements for the game).

The only new road type that have (a little bit of) sense, always in my opinion, is the Dirt / Gravel / Unimproved Roads (and never is a vital improvement).

No, there isn't a new floor level. It would be nice. None the less, there's plenty of space now to have multiple types of visual styles. Many elevated types operate with nothing but ground underneath them, for safety purposes.

Multiple levels could be added, hypothetically. I have no idea how easy it would be. Pipes, power lines, telecom lines, elevated metro, suspended monorail and omnipurpose road are a practical must-have for their various purposes, even without multiple levels, as eventually a town becomes too big to reasonably transport cargo or passengers within them by road, and bulldozing city blocks for trains is counter-productive.

The current spec is that there can only be one RoadType and one TramType per tile. I haven't read the full specs yet, but I know as of right now you can't have multiple levels on the same tile. As demonstrated in the Urban Suspended Monorail and Fake Subways NewGRFs, trams and road vehicles still have to share the same space, even if one of them appears to be elevated over the road surface or hidden underneath it.

The only way to have it elevated is to actually elevate it, one tile above using a bridge. With a good sense of style and bridge work, you can pull off that illusion.

[adf88]

The current spec is that there can only be one RoadType and one TramType per tile. I haven't read the full specs yet, but I know as of right now you can't have multiple levels on the same tile. As demonstrated in the Urban Suspended Monorail and Fake Subways NewGRFs, trams and road vehicles still have to share the same space, even if one of them appears to be elevated over the road surface or hidden underneath it.

The only way to have it elevated is to actually elevate it, one tile above using a bridge.

Nah, you lack imagination. Two not-road-types is just enough. The "only" thing that would have to be implemented is to allow to flag vehicles (and vehicles only) as a given level vehicle and to allow concurrent movement of vehicles of different levels without interfering. Thats it. The rest would be up to GRF creators, to make it look and behave consistently.

An elevated bus could be just a "road" vehicle but with different level and with special road type required - this road type would be compatible with "normal" road vehicles. Only one not-road-type per tile is required for this to work! Underground pipes could be coded as a "tram" for example. This way we would have three independent levels possible on a single tile:
- elevated buses overground (special road type required)
- normal road vehicles on ground (compatible with the above special road type)
- pipes underground (special tram type required)

[andythenorth]

NotRoadTypes makes no special provision for elevated or sub-surface vehicles. This is very very unlikely to change. The idea has been considered a little.

Elevated or sub-surface can be done with graphical hacks, but there are problems with elevated vehicles, they clip overbridges, rail crossing catenary, tunnels etc.

[wallyweb]

... provision for elevated or sub-surface vehicles.

This brings to mind enhanced tunnels and so far only TTDPatch has been able to do it.

[adf88]

there are problems with elevated vehicles, they clip overbridges, rail crossing catenary, tunnels etc.

They would clip if they would be elevated too much. The space is limited, yes. It would be hard to fit an elevated bus between on-ground vehicles and catenary/tunnels/bridges. Is this enough reason to abandon the idea? Maybe not. For example, power lines don't need tall vehicles, an "electron" would fit. Also, as you noticed, the problem would be much lesser in case of underground vehicles.

I believe that with a little of creativity this feature could be utilized with success.

[andythenorth]

I believe that with a little of creativity this feature could be utilized with success.

You could fork from here: https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoad ... tram-types

I assume you'd need to add a height layer property to nml, which you can fork from here https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth

I'm not sure how you'll avoid the appearance of elevated road vehicles driving through bridges, but the first thing would be to fork and test. If you haven't seen the graphic hacks version yet, try the elevated monorail (tram) grf, which Zephyris made (probably available on bananas).

[SilverSurferZzZ]

New floor vehicles (road and trams), of course, need some new flags.

And for the elevated vehicles, the most needed in my opinion, is evident the option to don't have permission to cross tunnels (I never seen a tunnel in the air, maybe in Japan ).
Even, by defect, don't have permission to this (cross tunnels).

The code for all this (floor levels)... is... complicated
But for my, have more sense that new road types without new levels; It's like repeating all and don't have nothing.


A study about all this is good but, maybe, the best option is work in other, and easy, things in OTTD... As increase some limits as the text strings in game, for example.
And think in complicated things for 2.0 version.

[adf88]

I'm not sure how you'll avoid the appearance of elevated road vehicles driving through bridges

By making them small/short enough.

[Supercheese]

Maybe OTTD just needs a new cheat in the cheat menu, "Allow all road vehicles to NoClip through each other", just like how ships happily clip through each other (clipper ships? ).

[NekoMaster]

Maybe OTTD just needs a new cheat in the cheat menu, "Allow all road vehicles to NoClip through each other", just like how ships happily clip through each other (clipper ships? ).

Road vehicles already do that, put a bunch in a drive through station long enough and they'll all drive into one spot so that 5-10 trucks/busses look like one.

Another example, when road vehicles cross paths and intersect, they don't crash or stop, they just "ghost" through each other and continue on.

[Supercheese]

Road vehicles already do that, put a bunch in a drive through station long enough and they'll all drive into one spot so that 5-10 trucks/busses look like one.

Another example, when road vehicles cross paths and intersect, they don't crash or stop, they just "ghost" through each other and continue on.

Sure, but I mean in all circumstances.

[kamnet]

I just updated the first post with a link to RATT-enabled binaries for download, and some NewGRFs to test out already.

If you have an idea that hasn't been discussed here yet, feel free to post! We have some developers who are interested in seeing how far we can push what we have. Or, perhaps you're finally getting an itch to make something yourself?

[YNM]

Wow, I've been away from OpenTTD development for waay to long

This is amazing !

I suggest, if anyone were to make :

Roadtypes :
- Various speed limits (probably 25/60/90/120/150/unlimited km/h)
- Various surface condition (ice/gravel/tarmac, also special one-way optimized schemes)
- Various base and/or width (coupled with surface condition and speed limits - probably there could be a way to force vehicles to slow down when passing each other ?)
- Building-inhibiting types ?
Basically all road vehicles should be able to go on all roadtype.

Tramtypes :
- LRT (trams that aren't meant to go with road)
- Busways, despite my hatred of them...
- Elevated rails - making a bridge on top of the road beneath, problem will be offset of vehicles
- Pipelines - better represented than using rails I think, can be made to fit various industrial - station set graphics
- Electricity distribution, although probably very problematic