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 Post subject: Subway
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:15 pm 
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I think subway for the town van be good. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 7:33 pm 
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This is an old topic; you can find other threads talking about it if you perform a search on the forums.

Last I heard about it, subways won't be possible until someone figures out how to change the game's map array to allow them, maintain compatibility with everything else, and still perform properly, especially in multiplayer.

In the meantime, there's a few things you could try to emulate subways. Without installing NewGRF, you could either use tramways on town roads for an above-ground solution, or you can lower parcels of land around or within towns, build train stations, and connect them via straight tunnels running underneath the town. For this last one, you might want to activate the cheat that allows tunnels to cross each other, to keep things simple (as well as the magic bulldozer cheat if you need to remove a lot of town buildings to build your stations if you're not starting a new game).

With NewGRF, you could use fake subways (download from the online content service in-game since that appears to be more up-to-date), which adds transparent articulated road vehicles that can be refitted to be very long (like 8 "carriages", for instance), and thus simulate "trains" running underground. They're still road vehicles, though, so they'll still act like one, but if you don't pay too much attention to those aspects, it could be a fun alternative nonetheless.

Using NewGRF also allows you to add metro train sets for the intracity stations + tunnels solution. A good modern example is the 2CC RTFM, but any set with metro trains could work fittingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:09 am 
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Kalen wrote:
Without installing NewGRF, you could either use tramways on town roads for an above-ground solution

Tramways still require a NewGRF to work, as the trams are not part of the default graphics.

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Oh yea, so they do. I've been playing with them for so long I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction! :)

(examples of NewGRF in case the OP/anyone else is interested: OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles, 2CC Trams, Generic Road Vehicle and Tram Set)


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:42 am 
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Kalen wrote:
Oh yea, so they do. I've been playing with them for so long I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction! :)

To be honest, I'm surprised that the Generic Tram set hasn't been made a part of the base OTTD. I don't know how much extra work that would entail however.

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:01 am 
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Pilot wrote:
Kalen wrote:
Oh yea, so they do. I've been playing with them for so long I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction! :)

To be honest, I'm surprised that the Generic Tram set hasn't been made a part of the base OTTD. I don't know how much extra work that would entail however.


Dev's stance is that if it can be released as a NewGRF, it doesn't need to be integrated into OpenTTD.

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Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:46 pm 
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kamnet wrote:
Pilot wrote:
Kalen wrote:
Oh yea, so they do. I've been playing with them for so long I forgot about that. Thank you for the correction! :)

To be honest, I'm surprised that the Generic Tram set hasn't been made a part of the base OTTD. I don't know how much extra work that would entail however.


Dev's stance is that if it can be released as a NewGRF, it doesn't need to be integrated into OpenTTD.


I suppose that attitude is what sustains the market for "patch packs".


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Afaik, patch packs don't add tramways in their pack.

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:07 pm 
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Baldy's Boss wrote:
kamnet wrote:
Pilot wrote:
To be honest, I'm surprised that the Generic Tram set hasn't been made a part of the base OTTD. I don't know how much extra work that would entail however.


Dev's stance is that if it can be released as a NewGRF, it doesn't need to be integrated into OpenTTD.


I suppose that attitude is what sustains the market for "patch packs".


Patch packs have nothing to do with NewGRFs. NewGRF is an open system that allows individuals to create and add content that they'd like into the game, without bogging down or complicating the core game.

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Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Alberth wrote:
Afaik, patch packs don't add tramways in their pack.


No reason one couldn't,though.

Because stuff you want doesn't get integrated into the base game,there are opportunities to create packages of options that add up to what you want (which it is more convenient to add as one package than hunting down all the NewGRFs one by one).


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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:15 am 
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Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Alberth here, but I think the point might have been that patch packs don't include tramways... because tramways, the infrastructure, are already in trunk. It's the vehicles that need to be added via NewGRF. "If it can be released as NewGRF" applies well enough to trams because they can be added like other vehicles, whereas adding the infrastructure itself would require code changes. Which have been done. :P

I suppose the weirdness about tram engines only being available via third-party NewGRF is that this doesn't happen with anything else like, say, electrified rails, which default electric trains can run on. But since TTDX didn't have trams (unlike electric trains, which it did have), NewGRF have to come to the rescue for those. Perhaps an alternative would be to provide trams in OpenGFX, but then again OpenGFX+RV already does that.

I don't know the state of the installer these days since I only use the nightly version, but I'd think perhaps the installer should recommend downloading OGFX+RV to cover trams by default (because there's no guarantee players will even know about NewGRF or otherwise seek them out).

In any case, I think this topic is going a little off-topic. I suggested trams as an alternative to OP's inquiry, but they're really tangential to this conversation, and discussions about internal OpenTTD methodology should perhaps be moved to a different thread?


Last edited by Kalen on Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:52 am 
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Kalen wrote:
Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Alberth here, but I think the point might have been that patch packs don't include tramways...
It is.

Kalen wrote:
I suppose the weirdness about tram engines only being available via third-party NewGRF is that this doesn't happen with anything else like, say, electrified rails, which default electric trains are set to run on. But since TTDX didn't have trams (unlike electric trains, which it did have), NewGRF have to come to the rescue for those. Perhaps an alternative would be to provide trams in OpenGFX, but then again OpenGFX+RV already does that.
Adding a Newgrf into the baseset would be an option, but it enlarges the maintenance effort of the OpenTTD program. Most devs prefer hacking C++ above hacking NML or NFO, or they would make NewGRFs instead of program code. It is far more efficient to keep it separate, so anybody can pick it up and improve.
(Ironically, that often means everybody thinks someone else will do it, but that's a different topic.)

A second advantage of keeping trams NewGRF out of OpenTTD, is that you're not stuck with it, like we are with the default set. I think if we would make OpenTTD from scratch today, we would not add any vehicle at all. You download the program, you download your preferred baseset, and you download your preferred vehicles.

Finally, a third advantage is that it keeps a level playing field in the competition of the best trams. Personally, I think this is the most relevant reason. Every author of a tram set should have an equal opportunity to get picked by a user. If we would bundle tram set X with the program by default, we'd disturb that competition.
You see this with the default set again. Although I still enjoy playing with it, the set isn't that good for current OpenTTD. For example, it completely breaks with non-default cargoes. However, since it comes with OpenTTD by default, it is very hard to get new players away from the default set.

Kalen wrote:
I don't know the state of the installer these days since I only use the nightly version, but I'd think perhaps the installer should recommend downloading OGFX+RV to cover trams by default (because there's no guarantee players will even know about NewGRF or otherwise seek them out).
To me, OGFX+ is a set of NewGRFs just like any other NewGRFs. It's specific aim is to enhance the default set, so its name is quite appropriate, but they are not related to OGFX itself.

Automatic download of some set X would tilt the playing field heavily towards that set X. In my view that is unwanted. I am all for a way to make it easier to use NewGRFs, but the first thing you would need there imho is a good web frontend for bananas, so an author can tell about the set, show some pictures, and give highlights or whatever.

Right now, to a new user, a NewGRF/AI/Game-script is nothing more than a random name that means nothing to him/her (eg "BusyBee"), and it's close to impossible to get any solid information about it, unless you want to search forever. You can also not find a good list of stuff that is available. You cannot find what others think about it. You cannot find what combinations of NewGRFs are useful. There are many good sets, but it's not disclosed in an accessible way, so users can browse, compare, download, give it a try-run, comment, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:15 am 
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Alberth wrote:
Right now, to a new user, a NewGRF/AI/Game-script is nothing more than a random name that means nothing to him/her (eg "BusyBee"), and it's close to impossible to get any solid information about it, unless you want to search forever. You can also not find a good list of stuff that is available. You cannot find what others think about it. You cannot find what combinations of NewGRFs are useful. There are many good sets, but it's not disclosed in an accessible way, so users can browse, compare, download, give it a try-run, comment, etc.

we should totally switch to steam workshop :p

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 Post subject: Re: Subway
PostPosted: Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:39 am 
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Kalen wrote:
Last I heard about it, subways won't be possible until someone figures out how to change the game's map array to allow them, maintain compatibility with everything else, and still perform properly, especially in multiplayer.

Well, there was that one "Real Underground" patch a few years ago - IIRC, the trick with that was that part of the map was set aside for use as an underground layer.
No real changes to the map array as such, but the effective size of the map was reduced by 1/1+n (where n is the number of underground layers).


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