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 Post subject: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:34 pm 
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Currently, waterway paths have infinity capacity, which somewhat break game balance.
Another issue is, that sea pathfinder causes lags, in case of large number of ships and large distances between buoys.
As an results, ships number is often limited or even zeroed in case of multiplayer servers.

I propose following solution:

[*]ships are reserving its path to nearest buoy/dock, if there is any free slot;
[*]ships are anchored at buoy/dock, if there is no free slots for proceed to the next buoy/dock;
[*]buoys have capacity limited to 4 ships (standing or heading to);
[*]docks have capacity limited to 3 ships (loading/unloading or heading to);
[*]similar to road vehicles, ship would proceed if is waiting too long, to avoid jam deadlock.

In my opinion, above proposal should solve both 'infinity waterway capacity' and 'pathfinder usage' problems (automatically forcing players with huge fleet to keep less buoys distances),
and bring interesting challenges with projecting efficient roadsteads.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:45 pm 
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That is one of the most interesting ship proposals I've seen :twisted:

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Want to help OTTD development? Here's the official list of bitesize patches needed: http://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list

FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


Hiring developers http://blog.delib.net/were-hiring-devel ... ristol-uk/


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:19 pm 
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Sounds like could be an idea for holding pattern stacks at some point distant to airports too, though i'd hate to have to build physical objects to denote where planes circle 20,000 feet above. A (maybe bad?) solution would be for a dock or airport runway to have a 'hold at this distant point' gui in the station window. Not sure it adds much to airports other than maybe a crude way to prioritize landings. for ships it would be neat to see ships waiting in the outer harbor / bay - landing at JFK at night I always like to look at the lights of all of the ships waiting off shore to dock in the morning.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:53 am 
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Maybe airports could have flashing approach lights when their landing patterns were full up?


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:00 pm 
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I don't really see the problem with the "unlimited capacity" of ships. You can of course have 20 ships at a dock simultaneosly, but that's very poor economy. Ships make money by moving stuff around, not by sitting at the dock waiting for cargo. Besides, if you have breakdowns enabled, a long waiting time will seriously lower the ship's reliability. Therefore, it's always good practice to trim a shipping route to the smallest number of ships that can possibly handle the cargo, with the optimum capacity per ship at about one month's production. Thus, you can have a small distance between each ship, and never have to see two ships at the dock at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:07 pm 
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leifbk wrote:
I don't really see the problem with the "unlimited capacity" of ships. You can of course have 20 ships at a dock simultaneosly, but that's very poor economy.
Of course heap of 20 ships waiting for same cargo is counter-productive, but many ships waiting for different cargoes while other can unload cargo simultaneously, are rather OP in comparison to road vehicle bays, train station or airports.
Additionally, many ships waiting (no matter for same or different cargo) are hard to manage (hard to check, which one is partially loaded, which one is empty, and which one is which, all collapsed together). Therefore idea of limited dock/buoy capacity is not only for sake of game balance, but also for more convenient use of ships, not counting aesthetic reasons.

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My experimental openTTD server: 149.156.194.203:3979 non-standard client, now testing: JGRPP-0.17.1 http://tiny.pl/ggnch
Projects: Reproducible Map Generation patch, NewGRFs: Manpower industries, PolTrams, Polroad, 600mm narrow gauge, preindustrial houses, wired, ECS industry extension.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:35 pm 
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McZapkie wrote:
leifbk wrote:
I don't really see the problem with the "unlimited capacity" of ships. You can of course have 20 ships at a dock simultaneosly, but that's very poor economy.
Of course heap of 20 ships waiting for same cargo is counter-productive, but many ships waiting for different cargoes while other can unload cargo simultaneously, are rather OP in comparison to road vehicle bays, train station or airports.

Additionally, many ships waiting (no matter for same or different cargo) are hard to manage (hard to check, which one is partially loaded, which one is empty, and which one is which, all collapsed together). Therefore idea of limited dock/buoy capacity is not only for sake of game balance, but also for more convenient use of ships, not counting aesthetic reasons.

For aestethical as well as practical reasons I prefer to route different cargoes via separate docks, like here:

Attachment:
2080_bulk.png
2080_bulk.png [ 160.02 KiB | Viewed 304 times ]

Bauxite and chemicals are loaded at separate docks, while gasoline is being unloaded at the nearest dock.

For checking which ships are loading and which are waiting, I recommend to assign a vehicle group for each route. With most of Andy's ships, for instance, it's extremely simple to check if there's a surplus.

Attachment:
Selection_033.png
Selection_033.png [ 35.72 KiB | Viewed 304 times ]

You can easily see that ship no. 8 is loading while no. 9 is waiting. However, the overhead in this particular case is so slight that it's better to have a ship briefly waiting, rather than having the cargo waiting for too long.

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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:59 pm 
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leifbk wrote:
For aestethical as well as practical reasons I prefer to route different cargoes via separate docks, like here:


A problem with this solution, however, is that not all maps/playstyles/available funds will allow the construction of such a generous harbour with multiple docks. Additionally, some groups of ships will need to use the same dock, for example to transfer cargo, and depending on the situation you still may end up with an undifferentiated pile of boats.


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:23 pm 
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My objection to ships currently is that they have practically infinite capacity per tile. Other transport types in OpenTTD do not have that. ;)

For me, the primary challenge of the game is fitting routes into the landscape, especially when they contend for space/ capacity. So a transport type that has unlimited capacity per tile is not so fun to actually use. Of course, there are other play styles, but eh, that's my 2p.

Directly limiting the capacity-per-tile by restricting the number of ships per tile (as per trains) is probably unfeasible due to pathfinder issues. Limiting capacity-per-tile via stations and bouys is an interesting alternative approach, and roughly in-line with how RVs and planes work.

_________________
Want to help OTTD development? Here's the official list of bitesize patches needed: http://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list

FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


Hiring developers http://blog.delib.net/were-hiring-devel ... ristol-uk/


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 Post subject: Re: Bouy/dock capacity
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:09 am 
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Derailing the thread again, these are daft :)


Attachments:
river_dock.png
river_dock.png [ 107.67 KiB | Viewed 181 times ]

_________________
Want to help OTTD development? Here's the official list of bitesize patches needed: http://wiki.openttd.org/Todo_list

FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)


Hiring developers http://blog.delib.net/were-hiring-devel ... ristol-uk/
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