Weird Train Acceleration in Nightlies

[NekoMaster]

Hello all. Im not sure if this is a bug or if its meant to be this way but I feel there's something wrong with the train acceleration in the nightlies. For example. I have 3 trains set up in 3 different games (Stable 1.0.4, ChilliPatch Pack r21474, and cargodist g9a7d314e). All three trains are 32 cars long (including the 2 locomotives) hauled by 2 African Class 19D locomotives from the tropical rail set which have a max speed of 104 Km\h. All trains are hauling 870t of cargo on the same length of rail on flat ground, but the two trains in the chillipatch pack and cargodist both struggle to get more then 85 Km\H while the Stable train gets up to 104 Km\h after awhile.

In Advanced options Im using realistic acceleration and weight multiplier set to 1. I think there is something weird going on here if 2 trains in patched nightlies cant perform the same as a Stable train. Also, the 2 struggling trains perform the same in both patched nightlies so I don't think this is a patch problem.

[Eddi]

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Realistic acceleration was tuned down significantly in a recent nightly, because it was the general opinion that trains were accelerating way too fast, so the difference between engines became negligible.

Now, the relation of power and tractive effort have way more influence, so more thought needs to go into choosing the right engine for your trains.

[NekoMaster]

"It's not a bug, it's a feature."

Realistic acceleration was tuned down significantly in a recent nightly, because it was the general opinion that trains were accelerating way too fast, so the difference between engines became negligible.

Now, the relation of power and tractive effort have way more influence, so more thought needs to go into choosing the right engine for your trains.

Well this is a messed up feature as now even some half decent engines (ie, 2-8-2 Mikado, EMD F7, SAR Class19D, Baldwin RF16, Alco FA-2) can barely pull a 32 car train even with 3-4 locos (which for that length I think is overkill especially when it comes to steam engines)

I can understand if the acceleration was lowered to mimick real life acceleration so that the train wont reach its max speed for awhile, but when my trains can barely touch its max speed thats a little messed

EDIT : It seems that the new realistic acceleration is based more on HP because even though I have 2 NSWGR 44 Class locos (3000 HP/523 kN TE) hauling the same load it still struggles. 3000 HP should be more then enough to haul a 32 car train (The SD40-2 and other similar powered high traction loco's normally can haul a load like that with just one engine)

I think that in the Acceleration option, it should be "Original" "Improved" and "Realistic" so that people that really want their realistic acceleration can have it while people like me who know what a engine can do in real life can enjoy its power and traction without having to have a bunch of loco's just to haul a simple load that one locomotive could do in real life.

[Alberth]

<sigh/>
This discussion never stops, does it?

I am against a 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/etc realistic option, but perhaps we can make it a scale?
Something from 0% to 100% realism (whatever that means).

[Terkhen]

See http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=51724 and http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=51737.

[michael blunck]

<sigh/>
This discussion never stops, does it?

I am against a 2nd/3rd/4th/5th/etc realistic option, but perhaps we can make it a scale?
Something from 0% to 100% realism (whatever that means).

That´s exactly why I always voted for "real realistic" measures. I.e., implementing tractive output along the lines of prototypical models.

Everything else will only result into a never ending series of complaints and grievances.

Maybe the forums should host an own sub-category for this stuff?

regards
Michael

[PikkaBird]

A few points;

1) 32 cars is ridiculously long for a ttd train. Talking realism and train lengths will get you nowhere.
2) if you think a steam locomotive on a heavy freight train not being able to reach its "maximum speed" is unrealistic, you're wrong. If you think quadruple heading F7s or FAs is unrealistic, you're wrong.
3) if a 2 or 3000hp loco can handle any train, where does that leave the 5 or 6000hp locos?

[NekoMaster]

A few points;

1) 32 cars is ridiculously long for a ttd train. Talking realism and train lengths will get you nowhere.
2) if you think a steam locomotive on a heavy freight train not being able to reach its "maximum speed" is unrealistic, you're wrong. If you think quadruple heading F7s or FAs is unrealistic, you're wrong.
3) if a 2 or 3000hp loco can handle any train, where does that leave the 5 or 6000hp locos?

1) I've done longer trains with 48, 64, and 96 cars

2) I think Triple or Quad heading a 32 car train with F7's or FA's is wrong. I know that ABBA sets are done in real life on longer trains but for a 32 car train I find that weird.... unless its hauling the worlds heaviest cargo.

3) 3000 HP from a SD40-2 should be enough to haul a 32 car train at 65 MPH, where as the bigger locos I put into service on longer 48 and 64 car trains (usually mineral drags)

[oberhümer]

My very longest trains are ~30 cars long, and I have no problem using four GE Evolutions on them, I've also headed a 10 car passenger/mail with two F-units - I also think realistic-length freight trains don't really fit into OpenTTD (at least the don't look good). Hence, I think it's OK that you have to use a lot of power to pull long trains. It may not necessarily be realistic, but it's "game-realistic", if you understand what I mean.

(However, I wouldn't mind a setting to change this.)

[Hyronymus]

Realistic acceleration, isn't that an option you can choose? Then I suggest you deselect it if you don't like it.

[michael blunck]

[..] I also think realistic-length freight trains don't really fit into OpenTTD (at least the don't look good).

Here´s his problem:

In Advanced options Im using realistic acceleration and weight multiplier set to 1

O/c, he won´t read our suggestions and expanations.

regards
Michael

[NekoMaster]

My god.... what Im saying is its unrealistic that I can use something with stats eqiuvalent to 2-3 F7's or 1 SD40-2 to haul a 32 car train (which I feel is a little realistic in that trains in north america are normally pretty long on major railways)

[Hyronymus]

My god.... what Im saying is its unrealistic that I can use something with stats eqiuvalent to 2-3 F7's or 1 SD40-2 to haul a 32 car train (which I feel is a little realistic in that trains in north america are normally pretty long on major railways)

We got that, NekoMaster . All we are saying is that unrealistic depends on how you play the game.

[NekoMaster]

My god.... what Im saying is its unrealistic that I can use something with stats eqiuvalent to 2-3 F7's or 1 SD40-2 to haul a 32 car train (which I feel is a little realistic in that trains in north america are normally pretty long on major railways)

We got that, NekoMaster . All we are saying is that unrealistic depends on how you play the game.

I play the game with realism on trains (stats, speeds, rail types) and so I find it unrealistic that 3000+ HP/300+ kN TE can't pull a 32 car train with the weight multiplier set to 1x

[michael blunck]

[...] I find it unrealistic that 3000+ HP/300+ kN TE can't pull a 32 car train with the weight multiplier set to 1x

Care to enlighten us about train weight and gradient?

regards
Michael

[NekoMaster]

[...] I find it unrealistic that 3000+ HP/300+ kN TE can't pull a 32 car train with the weight multiplier set to 1x

Care to enlighten us about train weight and gradient?

regards
Michael

About 1600 Tonnes on flat land

[michael blunck]

[...] I find it unrealistic that 3000+ HP/300+ kN TE can't pull a 32 car train with the weight multiplier set to 1x

Care to enlighten us about train weight and gradient?

About 1600 Tonnes on flat land

For moving 1600t on flat land, a 3000hp/300kN lcoomotive should be more than sufficient. See calculations here.

regards
Michael

[NekoMaster]

For moving 1600t on flat land, a 3000hp/300kN lcoomotive should be more than sufficient. See calculations here.

regards
Michael

See what I mean, something like a SD40-2 (or similar stats) should be able to do that at freight speeds (60 - 75 MPH) but the new code makes it impossible for that. I can understand if it took longer to accelerate to full speed but having enough traction and speed and still not getting full speed is weird

[Eddi]

"freight speed of 100 - 125 km/h?" in which world do you live? average speed of a rail car in europe today is 15km/h, of course most of that time it is standing. in the steam age, a freight train rarely exceeded 60km/h, in rare circumstances 80 km/h.

[NekoMaster]

"freight speed of 100 - 125 km/h?" in which world do you live? average speed of a rail car in europe today is 15km/h, of course most of that time it is standing. in the steam age, a freight train rarely exceeded 60km/h, in rare circumstances 80 km/h.

I live in Canada and main line freight speeds in north america vary between 50 - 75 MPH (80 - 120 Km\H) depending on the cargo, the cars, the locomotive, and the track condition