Do you have problems with ECS vectors? Look here!

[bulb]

The rating shouldn't affect the ammount of cargo the industry produces, only how it's split between different stations. Why should a factory produce less goods out of the same ammount of raw materials just because the vehicle you pick the goods up with is 3 years old or you don't have a statue in the town? Doesn't make sense.

Well, there has to be something to make you want to provide a high quality service. However, it should probably not do it this aggressively (and in any case only it should IMHO only matter if the vehicle is past it's lifetime, not how old it is).

The rating does in fact make sense -- there's supposed to be a hidden spedition company, that takes the rest. The better you are, the bigger part you get to transport. But as I said, it probably shouldn't depend on the vehicle age (except when it's old) and should depend on the speed much less for cargo. On the other hand, the time the cargo waited at the station should definitely be included in total time of transport, so making it wait log would decrease the revenue significantly.

[George]

(1) The game should have a fair conditions for earlier years too, there should be a way. I like 1920-1950 period for instance . Why i cant achieve a situation where production is OK in 1920, i dont understand.

Suggestions? How should the industry react to the situation around it?
In early years you solve only one task - survive and exploit the success. If you want a stable game in 1920, shouldn't you start in 1900?

I hope the "closing" model will be reworked soon.

Done 3 hours ago. I making the last tests. Hope to provide a test file tomorrow.

(2) Its good to have some kind of mechanism to prolong the life of factories somehow. If the factory wich havs a bad rating (maybe connected or not connected to the transport network) and should be closed soon, it should be possible to prolong the life (pay/invest to the factory).
As mentioned before the factory closes just before my nose, when i've just finished building the connection for it

Hope it would be Ok now with new closure mechanism.

The rating shouldn't affect the amount of cargo the industry produces, only how it's split between different stations. Why should a factory produce less goods out of the same amount of raw materials just because the vehicle you pick the goods up with is 3 years old or you don't have a statue in the town? Doesn't make sense.

It does not produce less output from the same amount of input. I processes less input into less output (unused input is stored). The ratio is in most cases the same (in some cases the higher levels have less residues, so the ratio is higher on higher production levels)

[athanasios]

Sawmills should be placed anywhere near water. In my country we import logs from distant countries.

[Rainer]

Hi,

I'm playing with all ECS-Vectors on a 512x512 map. I started 1920 and at the moment (1950) I have only two Iron Ore Mines in use which I provide with cars and so their output has reached 1500 and 800 tons per month. The other Ore Mines on the map are now closing down one after the other without any new mine founded. I don't think that should happen at all, or should it?

cu
Rainer

[George]

I'm playing with all ECS-Vectors on a 512x512 map. I started 1920 and at the moment (1950) I have only two Iron Ore Mines in use which I provide with cars and so their output has reached 1500 and 800 tons per month. The other Ore Mines on the map are now closing down one after the other without any new mine founded. I don't think that should happen at all, or should it?

Wait for new closure mechanism be tested and applied to ECS machinery vector too.
Also, Iron ore mine should close down as soon as you've harvested all the ore.
They should be appear the same way as default ones did.

[bulb]

(1) The game should have a fair conditions for earlier years too, there should be a way. I like 1920-1950 period for instance . Why i cant achieve a situation where production is OK in 1920, i dont understand.

Suggestions? How should the industry react to the situation around it?
In early years you solve only one task - survive and exploit the success. If you want a stable game in 1920, shouldn't you start in 1900?

That's not the problem. The problem is, that eg. with URKS, it's not possible to get the rating over 75% in 1920-1950. Therefore the production keeps dropping. And with UKRS you need at least 6 wagons and sensibly short load time to make positive profit from a train, so you just can't get profit from an ore mine with 40t/month production. You have to get it to grow, but it never does, because you can't get the station rating to 75%.

You wouldn't have this problem with the default train set, because the trains are much faster and have lower running costs.

Suggestinon:
The grow/shrink probablilities should be smoothly proportional to the transported cargo rating. At 50%, the probability of growing and shrinking would be equal and with every percent above that the industry would more and more favor growing (and vice versa).

That way it would be harder with UKRS than with default trains (but that's OK -- the UKRS is intended to be harder), but still playable, because you can get over 50% rating with it and that would be enough to make the industries, although slowly, grow.

[George]

(1) The game should have a fair conditions for earlier years too, there should be a way. I like 1920-1950 period for instance . Why i cant achieve a situation where production is OK in 1920, i dont understand.

Suggestions? How should the industry react to the situation around it?
In early years you solve only one task - survive and exploit the success. If you want a stable game in 1920, shouldn't you start in 1900?

That's not the problem. The problem is, that eg. with URKS, it's not possible to get the rating over 75% in 1920-1950. Therefore the production keeps dropping. And with UKRS you need at least 6 wagons and sensibly short load time to make positive profit from a train, so you just can't get profit from an ore mine with 40t/month production. You have to get it to grow, but it never does, because you can't get the station rating to 75%.
You wouldn't have this problem with the default train set, because the trains are much faster and have lower running costs.
Suggestinon:
The grow/shrink probablilities should be smoothly proportional to the transported cargo rating. At 50%, the probability of growing and shrinking would be equal and with every percent above that the industry would more and more favor growing (and vice versa).
That way it would be harder with UKRS than with default trains (but that's OK -- the UKRS is intended to be harder), but still playable, because you can get over 50% rating with it and that would be enough to make the industries, although slowly, grow.

I've tried the idea of random grow on lowest production level and I was not satisfied with the result. I shall not repeat it again and remove it from all the industries some day (except agricultural vector where random behaviour is intended).
I do not want to decrease the minimal transportation rating below 70%. It is possible to make it year dependent, but I don't like this idea too. On the contrary, I'd suggest to modify the game (OTTD/TTDP) so that the speed would less affect the rating or the affecting would depend on max vehicles speed or current year. I suppose road trains should not be a solution in 1920-1950 anyway, and ships require water.

[Rainer]

Hi George,

The other Ore Mines on the map are now closing down one after the other without any new mine founded.

Wait for new closure mechanism be tested and applied to ECS machinery vector too.
Also, Iron ore mine should close down as soon as you've harvested all the ore.

This is not the problem on my map. I was writing about unused ore mines. In the original game, they randomly open and close. With ECS all seem to close down and none opened automatically.

Is it possible to reduce the count of second and higher level industries in the random game? One or two of each would be enough on the start and the frustration would be less, when not so many of them close down before connected.

BTW: I have no problems with UKRS and OTTD, perhaps because I normally use much longer trains (Length 14 - about 20 small cars) than some other players, even with not so powerful engines. The trains are running slower, but the rating goes up over 80% when I manage to provide constant transporting.

And one suggestion: When you implement the forewarning before closure, a similar warning for nearly exhausted mines would be helpful.

cu
Rainer

[Draakon]

So how should the new closing mechanism work? Maybe more info on that?

[George]

And one suggestion: When you implement the forewarning before closure, a similar warning for nearly exhausted mines would be helpful.

And when should the game inform you about "nearly exhausted mines"? 2000 tonnes left? 5000 tonnes left?
If when "you'll harvest all the mine in 24 months on current speed" than what should happen if you'll decrease the transportation? New messages for new exhausting speed?

So how should the new closing mechanism work? Maybe more info on that?

Test the test file from the ECS vectors thread.
Industry should report you "I shall be closed in 24 months if you do not provide good service". Then it checks the conditions and when they are achieved, stops closure counter. If counter comes to 1 from 24 the industry closes down.
Documentation would be written whet tests are complete.

[Rainer]

Hi George.

And one suggestion: When you implement the forewarning before closure, a similar warning for nearly exhausted mines would be helpful.

And when should the game inform you about "nearly exhausted mines"? 2000 tonnes left? 5000 tonnes left?

I think a half-yearly check of (rest / current production) <= 1 year will do it - at least for me.

The text can be something like "Mine will be exhausted in <n> months with current production".

cu
Rainer

[VitCons]

And one suggestion: When you implement the forewarning before closure, a similar warning for nearly exhausted mines would be helpful.

And when should the game inform you about "nearly exhausted mines"? 2000 tonnes left? 5000 tonnes left?
If when "you'll harvest all the mine in 24 months on current speed" than what should happen if you'll decrease the transportation? New messages for new exhausting speed?

So how should the new closing mechanism work? Maybe more info on that?

Test the test file from the ECS vectors thread.
Industry should report you "I shall be closed in 24 months if you do not provide good service". Then it checks the conditions and when they are achieved, stops closure counter. If counter comes to 1 from 24 the industry closes down.
Documentation would be written whet tests are complete.

COOL! That's what I need.

(1) Addtitionaly I wanted to ask about the stockpiling? Does it work in OTTD?
(2) How do you think to solve problem with:
- to have a good rating you have to transport as much as possible initial raw materails (coal, iron ore etc.) -> it means increasing the output of this raw material industry
- if you have a stockpile limitation in a factory, it means you should limit you the transportation to this factory to have a balance between a transportation and processing-> it means decreasing (or not increasing) the transportation levels on the raw material factories -> then closing the raw factories.

The question is about game balancing mechanizm? Is it present in the system? How you can achive at the same time a Maximum raw material producing and a Balance between the a transportation and processing on the factories.

(3) If you have already descovered a coal mine why do you need to close it down (for any reason) and spend a lot of resources for descovering a new one? . The same is for oil etc.. Is it possible to create a "temporary closed/ abandoned" status? If you want to reopen the coal mine when it is closed you should invest some money to make it working again.

ESC is a realy great work.. I want to have such system, but it should be logically balanced.

[George]

(1) Addtitionaly I wanted to ask about the stockpiling? Does it work in OTTD?

It should

(2) How do you think to solve problem with:
- to have a good rating you have to transport as much as possible initial raw materails (coal, iron ore etc.) -> it means increasing the output of this raw material industry
- if you have a stockpile limitation in a factory, it means you should limit you the transportation to this factory to have a balance between a transportation and processing-> it means decreasing (or not increasing) the transportation levels on the raw material factories -> then closing the raw factories.

You should send some of you trains to the other factory.

The question is about game balancing mechanizm? Is it present in the system? How you can achive at the same time a Maximum raw material producing and a Balance between the a transportation and processing on the factories.

by adjusting the number of trains at raw material industry and a factory. Usually you need 2-4 raw materials industries to feed up the next level industry.

(3) If you have already descovered a coal mine why do you need to close it down (for any reason) and spend a lot of resources for descovering a new one? . The same is for oil etc.. Is it possible to create a "temporary closed/ abandoned" status? If you want to reopen the coal mine when it is closed you should invest some money to make it working again.

I do not like the idea of "unused"/"frozen" industries on the map. If you can't satisfy existing ones (play so "bad" that they ware closed down) you should pay for new industries. BTW, you pay not as much as you get from servicing it.

ESC is a realy great work.. I want to have such system, but it should be logically balanced.

Unless I get suggestions, it is balanced the way I see it.
And do not say that I'm not open for suggestions. New closure mechanism was suggested by a user and was coded on request.

[bulb]

BTW: I have no problems with UKRS and OTTD, perhaps because I normally use much longer trains (Length 14 - about 20 small cars) than some other players, even with not so powerful engines. The trains are running slower, but the rating goes up over 80% when I manage to provide constant transporting.

... what do you fill those with in 1920?? (because later, say 1960, when the diesel engines become available and especially if you don't have the wagon limits enabled (but it's not clear whether they are taken into account by the algorithm), there is no longer any problem at all -- the discussion was specifically about the 1920-1950 period).

[Rainer]

Hi bulb,

I normally use much longer trains (Length 14 - about 20 small cars).

... what do you fill those with in 1920??

At the moment I play OpenTTD on a 512x512 map with all ECS vectors enabled, and I found the following strategy is very pleasing for me:

1) I start with passengers, building a bidirectional ring between all cities and larger towns. -> 1925
2) Then I'm looking for some of the bigger sand pits and connect them to a glass factory. I transport the glass to a big construction industry. (for this I already need very long trains, because sand gives 1.5 times the amount of glass in terms of train length) -> 1930
3) Then comes iron ore and coal to a steel mill, steel to the construction industry on a parallel track with glass -> 1935
4) Oil to the refinery, refined products to a chemical plant. -> 1938
5) I build a vehicles industry near the track of steel and glass, lead the trains to this industry and provide it with dyes -> 1940
6) Then I boost my Iron ore production with cars and start with the agricultural vector.

I keep all my tracks for one cargo only with the exception of iron ore and coal, so I don't have to think about big junctions.

cu
Rainer

[bulb]

At the moment I play OpenTTD on a 512x512 map with all ECS vectors enabled, and I found the following strategy is very pleasing for me:

1) I start with passengers, building a bidirectional ring between all cities and larger towns. -> 1925
2) Then I'm looking for some of the bigger sand pits and connect them to a glass factory. I transport the glass to a big construction industry. (for this I already need very long trains, because sand gives 1.5 times the amount of glass in terms of train length) -> 1930
3) Then comes iron ore and coal to a steel mill, steel to the construction industry on a parallel track with glass -> 1935
4) Oil to the refinery, refined products to a chemical plant. -> 1938
5) I build a vehicles industry near the track of steel and glass, lead the trains to this industry and provide it with dyes -> 1940
6) Then I boost my Iron ore production with cars and start with the agricultural vector.

I keep all my tracks for one cargo only with the exception of iron ore and coal, so I don't have to think about big junctions.

That's still puzzling me quite a bit. If you don't get speed bonus (which you don't because you don't have wagons for sand that would make 85 km/h yet), don't have statues everywhere (I don't think it's possible to build them this early) and don't do advertising campaigns, the maximum rating is 67%. And that requires quickly picking up all the cargo, which you are unlikely to do if you use such long trains.

[Rainer]

Hi,

you don't have wagons for sand that would make 85 km/h yet

I'm playing without wagon speed limit at the moment, but if I remember correctly, it was not so much different having them enabled.

cu
Rainer

[VitCons]

That's still puzzling me quite a bit. If you don't get speed bonus (which you don't because you don't have wagons for sand that would make 85 km/h yet), don't have statues everywhere (I don't think it's possible to build them this early) and don't do advertising campaigns, the maximum rating is 67%. And that requires quickly picking up all the cargo, which you are unlikely to do if you use such long trains.

The same is for me.
For me the gaming now looks like in the posted screenshots here http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=35695
1. Start game 512x512 where 190 industries
2. Try to make vhiecles, but when I try to transport iron ore, coal the industries closes (due to non-viechles supported or low rating).. cant reach much then 67% rating.. that time ~1940 I have 140 industries!!!.. My trying to transport somthing is a real survival until 1950

[zhargon]

I have just downloaded the windows Beta4 versions of Town / Machinery / Basic Vectors.
Using the Basic caused OTTD Beta 6/2 to crash - the other 2 OK - only the old files were replaced.... ie, otherwise the same config which I had just stopped after playing around 160 'years'.

[George]

I have just downloaded the windows Beta4 versions of Town / Machinery / Basic Vectors.
Using the Basic caused OTTD Beta 6/2 to crash - the other 2 OK - only the old files were replaced.... ie, otherwise the same config which I had just stopped after playing around 160 'years'.

You need the last nightly build. There is a bug in beta 2 with callback 22 and var 7F.
ECS Machinery vector may also crash, because it uses callback 22 too.