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 Post subject: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:47 pm 
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Merely re-asking the community. Considering how well OpenRCT2 is turning out and the fact that Locomotion and RCT2 use identical engines, would anyone even be interested in this?
Or is OpenTTD enough for this community?

This thread is ENTIRELY subjective and, personally, TTD in general is too clunky and OpenTTD hasn't improved that (coming from a person that enjoyed Simcity 2k)


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:40 am 
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mathwizi2005 wrote:
Merely re-asking the community. Considering how well OpenRCT2 is turning out and the fact that Locomotion and RCT2 use identical engines, would anyone even be interested in this?
Or is OpenTTD enough for this community?

This thread is ENTIRELY subjective and, personally, TTD in general is too clunky and OpenTTD hasn't improved that (coming from a person that enjoyed Simcity 2k)


It has been discussed on several occasions before, and since the original creator has shown little interest in the project since it's release and Atari itself is broken down into a myriad of different license holders, you would be in for a hard slog to find a starting point to get over the existing copyright and IPR issues.

it would be nice because the first place of attack would be to remove some of the games more obvious limits or failings within the gameplay aspects and that requires modification of the EXE.file, but since the policy of this forum is that we respect the integrity of that item that would only happen IF "Atari" and it's successors abandoned their claim to the copyright of this game and since the game is still making money through sales and of course the Steam version that will not happen in the short to medium term.

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Don't touch that rail!

Scenario's Done are

Broken Hills at the Rivers Mouth viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49627, Sinn River viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49626, Flat Lands viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37704, Mountain High River Deep viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37412, River Valley and Rock viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37135, First Attempt viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34097 Cwm Valley viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34049&hilit=cwm+valley


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 2:32 am 
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uktrackbuilder_loco wrote:
It has been discussed on several occasions before, and since the original creator has shown little interest in the project since it's release and Atari itself is broken down into a myriad of different license holders, you would be in for a hard slog to find a starting point to get over the existing copyright and IPR issues.

It would be nice because the first place of attack would be to remove some of the games more obvious limits or failings within the gameplay aspects and that requires modification of the EXE.file, but since the policy of this forum is that we respect the integrity of that item that would only happen IF "Atari" and it's successors abandoned their claim to the copyright of this game and since the game is still making money through sales and of course the Steam version that will not happen in the short to medium term.


<points at OpenRCT2> Its only an engine rewrite, not a complete release. The game files are still required and is, as a result, fair use (still requires an official copy of the game.)
There is also the fact that both games use the same, identical engine with different calls. The project would not be starting from scratch as the github for OpenRCT2 would at least be a starting point on where to look first, if nothing is compatible. It may be assembly, but Chris wouldn't re-code the entire engine from scratch just for Loco. At that point, its just code conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 3:10 pm 
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mathwizi2005 wrote:
uktrackbuilder_loco wrote:
It has been discussed on several occasions before, and since the original creator has shown little interest in the project since it's release and Atari itself is broken down into a myriad of different license holders, you would be in for a hard slog to find a starting point to get over the existing copyright and IPR issues.

It would be nice because the first place of attack would be to remove some of the games more obvious limits or failings within the gameplay aspects and that requires modification of the EXE.file, but since the policy of this forum is that we respect the integrity of that item that would only happen IF "Atari" and it's successors abandoned their claim to the copyright of this game and since the game is still making money through sales and of course the Steam version that will not happen in the short to medium term.


<points at OpenRCT2> Its only an engine rewrite, not a complete release. The game files are still required and is, as a result, fair use (still requires an official copy of the game.)
There is also the fact that both games use the same, identical engine with different calls. The project would not be starting from scratch as the github for OpenRCT2 would at least be a starting point on where to look first, if nothing is compatible. It may be assembly, but Chris wouldn't re-code the entire engine from scratch just for Loco. At that point, its just code conversion.


But the issue remains of copyright and since the current copyright holders for this game are still making money off of it they are hardly going to abandon it and that is the key because you will have to decompile the coding to complete the code conversion and that is forbidden within the terms of the current EULA.
So without an agreement with "Atari" to deal with that aspect and make Locomotion open play you will forfeit your current rights to use the existing game and that means you are technically guilty of what amounts to software piracy.

But since this subject is realistically nothing more than an exercise in wishful thinking until someone can convince the current copyright holders across all of the various licensing agreements and software platforms to abandon all of their rights to the code or otherwise and all IPR rights to the game, it is a dead letter and thus not worthy of discussion.
However if you can produce a memorandum of agreement from the various license holders to abandon all of their rights in respect of Locomtion then I suspect the prormotion of an open version of the game would be looked at by the online community because until that point there are several parties with very vested interests in continuing to draw income from the publishing of this title.

_________________
Don't touch that rail!

Scenario's Done are

Broken Hills at the Rivers Mouth viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49627, Sinn River viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49626, Flat Lands viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37704, Mountain High River Deep viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37412, River Valley and Rock viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37135, First Attempt viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34097 Cwm Valley viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34049&hilit=cwm+valley


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:45 pm 
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Even if Atari don't care about Locomotion, the fact that somebody took the trouble to release the game on Steam last year, shows that one or more copyright holders think that there is still money to be made from it 12 years down the road. Couple that to the game still being sold on GOG.com, and it doesn't look like something they plan on letting go of any time soon.

So even if OpenLocomotion was given a green light by the copyright holder, they would probably try to find ways of making money off it too. Meaning lots of paperwork, legal agreements, having to get every little thing approved. The whole process would be a complete nightmare.

But after all of that, i'd still love to see OpenLocomotion happen one day! :D

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 4:05 pm 
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304 001 wrote:
Even if Atari don't care about Locomotion, the fact that somebody took the trouble to release the game on Steam last year, shows that one or more copyright holders think that there is still money to be made from it 12 years down the road. Couple that to the game still being sold on GOG.com, and it doesn't look like something they plan on letting go of any time soon.

So even if OpenLocomotion was given a green light by the copyright holder, they would probably try to find ways of making money off it too. Meaning lots of paperwork, legal agreements, having to get every little thing approved. The whole process would be a complete nightmare.

But after all of that, i'd still love to see OpenLocomotion happen one day! :D


In all honesty I would too as I touched one one area where the game could be vastly improved, but until the various parties who own this game are prepared to abandon their rights to it then open locomotion is nothing more than wishful thinking, and I would be very acutely aware that any private attempts to decompile the code and create a non licensed open source version will flounder on the rock of the EULA because if word of that little enterprise reached the parties who are selling this through Steam and GOG, they might consider legal action to protect their rights.

_________________
Don't touch that rail!

Scenario's Done are

Broken Hills at the Rivers Mouth viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49627, Sinn River viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49626, Flat Lands viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37704, Mountain High River Deep viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37412, River Valley and Rock viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37135, First Attempt viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34097 Cwm Valley viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34049&hilit=cwm+valley


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2016 5:33 pm 
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Oh well. Best wait until 2024, but basically releasing the game on Steam immortalizes it in the eyes of copyright law, and if any would-be modifiers try to make any adjustments will face the wrath of Steam and it's copyright holders.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:22 am 
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All of you bickering about modified EXE files , OpenRCT2 uses a DIFFERENT EXE. Not modified. MADE FROM SCRATCH. OpenRCT2 also requires the original game to run , it just adds things like multiplayer. (Locomotion Multiplayer already exists , so it is only a problem of taking existing concepts and applying those concepts to servers instead of IP connections.)

RCT2 is made by the same person/published by the same company/uses the same engine as Locomotion. If OpenRCT2 was legal we could pretty much do everything the same way as it.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:19 pm 
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Awesometrains wrote:
All of you bickering about modified EXE files , OpenRCT2 uses a DIFFERENT EXE. Not modified. MADE FROM SCRATCH. OpenRCT2 also requires the original game to run , it just adds things like multiplayer. (Locomotion Multiplayer already exists , so it is only a problem of taking existing concepts and applying those concepts to servers instead of IP connections.)

RCT2 is made by the same person/published by the same company/uses the same engine as Locomotion. If OpenRCT2 was legal we could pretty much do everything the same way as it.
openrct2 was not from scratch, it was reverse-engineered from the RCT2 program.

I don't know what the license conditions of RCT2 are wrt reverse engineering, that should tell you whether it was legal. Similarly, if you want to do that trick with Locomotion, you need that same requirement. At least don't do what openrct2 did, adding the RCT2 program plain in the repository, that can be seen as a form of distributing the program, which is definitely illegal.

The situation of RCT2 is quite different from Locomotion imho. RCT2 rights are not with CS, afaik (there is no clear owner of RCT2, or at least not one that cares much, I think), while the Transport Tycoon rights are with CS. Also, there is a current mobile game that uses the exact same graphics by the company of CS. You think he won't send you a cease and desist letter? I very much doubt it. At least, I would not be happy if some other dude would use the exact same graphics for his game that I also use, while I have the rights to them.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2016 10:11 pm 
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Alberth wrote:
I would not be happy if some other dude would use the exact same graphics for his game that I also use, while I have the rights to them.


No , OpenLocomotion would make Chris Sawyer happy if it was like OpenRCT2. OpenRCT2 requires the original game files to run. That means if OpenLocomotion came out , more people would buy the original Locomotion because they need the files from the original Locomotion to run OpenLocomotion.

And from earlier in your post , Chris Sawyer held the original copyright I believe , but it was sold to Atari , just like RCT2.

OpenRCT2 Website wrote:
An installation of RollerCoaster Tycoon 2 is required in order to play. RCT2, with expansions, is cheap nowadays and can be bought from G2A, GOG and Steam.


Now apply this to OpenLocomotion

OpenLocomotion Website (Hypothetical) wrote:
An installation of Chris Sawyer's Locomotion is required in order to play. Locomotion is cheap nowadays and can be bought from GOG and Steam.


Does this clear it up? I'm sure they had the same bickering on the RCT forums about OpenRCT2.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:11 am 
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Just because a mod requires the original (legitimate, even, with valid DRM) game files in order to work doesn't necessarily mean it won't break the EULA. If the license forbids changes to game files or to how the game operates via unauthorized third-party software, then it's most definitely a breach.

Likewise, open-source clones and remakes often get into copyright infringement troubles. The mere act of cloning can be grounds for that, as can be redistributing or even merely making use of original files without distributing them, depending on how inflexible the copyright holder is.

I've seen projects receive C&D letters even though they used original engines, or engines from different games, completely original artwork, etc. solely because it was a remake of a copyrighted work, so this is definitely a tricky subject (even if I don't agree with this particular system).

Most mod makers, and some clone/remake makers manage to escape the clutches of legal hell either because their mods are small and tolerable, or because they got lucky (usually because the copyright holders aren't active any more or simply don't care). However, I don't think an OL would be as lucky.


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:32 am 
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Quote:
No , OpenLocomotion would make Chris Sawyer happy if it was like OpenRCT2. OpenRCT2 requires the original game files to run. That means if OpenLocomotion came out , more people would buy the original Locomotion because they need the files from the original Locomotion to run OpenLocomotion.
From what I see with law suites between rival companies, what happens is protection of ownership and of the brand. Money is nice, but not what it is about, I think.

If you use my graphics for 10 years, and then I change my mind, and try to get my right in court, I will have a hard time explaining why I waited 10 years. That means, if I care about ownership of the graphics, I cannot afford to let you use it.

Similarly, if you publish something close enough to Lomo, and something goes wrong there (eg people find it contains a back-door, or you add porn in the game, or advertising, or ...) that bad image will affect my new mobile game as well, as people don't see the difference. It's a similar enough name too, so all advertising, and careful branding of Transport Tycoon being the #1 game to have, goes down the drain. No way I can make a nice sequel game any more. All this because someone not under my control messes up. Can't let that happen if I care about Transport Tycoon as brand.

So yeah, it's about money in the end, but a franchise is a lot more money than any number of sales you can make with any OpenLomo clone.

From what I see, CS cares deeply about the Transport Tycoon franchise. He even bought all the rights back instead of inventing a new name for it. He is making the 4th game about it, after Transport Tycoon, Transport Tycoon Deluxe, and Locomotion, now the mobile game.


EDIT: To be clear, I don't like the copyright system either, but it's what we have.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2016 9:24 pm 
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After some research, it seems that TTD and RCT2 EULAs are missing one critical line that Loco's does have

'2. You may not decompile, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reproduce the Software.'

And looking into UK and US copyright and active filings for Locomotion, unless Atari greenlights the project, this will not be happening in our lifetime sadly.
I say this because they own PC exclusive publication rights (any PC release would be flagged instantly,) this is also the reason why TT for mobile was legal even though its using Locomotion art assets.

The community would be better off creating one from scratch and with OpenTTD running 'round these parts, highly doubt that's actually gonna happen.

Regardless, I consider the topic answered.

[+] Spoiler
Personally, I'd enjoy OpenTTD if the building interface wasn't explicit in its commands. This is from a person that grew up with RCT2 and its ride construction style of a separate menu to determine the next piece in line instead of "This angled track goes here, here, and here." I'd rather have in an interface that works in the era of open source, not the era of DOS. -shrugs-


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 3:20 pm 
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mathwizi2005 wrote:
After some research, it seems that TTD and RCT2 EULAs are missing one critical line that Loco's does have

'2. You may not decompile, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble or otherwise reproduce the Software.'

And looking into UK and US copyright and active filings for Locomotion, unless Atari greenlights the project, this will not be happening in our lifetime sadly.
I say this because they own PC exclusive publication rights (any PC release would be flagged instantly,) this is also the reason why TT for mobile was legal even though its using Locomotion art assets.

The community would be better off creating one from scratch and with OpenTTD running 'round these parts, highly doubt that's actually gonna happen.

Regardless, I consider the topic answered.

[+] Spoiler
Personally, I'd enjoy OpenTTD if the building interface wasn't explicit in its commands. This is from a person that grew up with RCT2 and its ride construction style of a separate menu to determine the next piece in line instead of "This angled track goes here, here, and here." I'd rather have in an interface that works in the era of open source, not the era of DOS. -shrugs-


Which is what we tried to tell you all along, because the game specifically forbids you to tamper with the source code in any form, so any attempts by you to develop an open Locomotion will mean you breached the EULA at the start.
Ergo what you have done is not legal and it gives the license holder a perfect reason to use a Cease and Desist letter or threaten you with a lawsuit in the First District Court of New York.

You will need the current license holders to agree to relinquish their IP rights, there are several license holders involved now as it depends on which platform or which region the game is being sold in as Atari was broken down into several publishing companies through acquisition during the late 2000's.

In short this was a thereotical discussion and unless you wish to spend your lifetime trying to get that agreement this thread is going nowhere

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Don't touch that rail!

Scenario's Done are

Broken Hills at the Rivers Mouth viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49627, Sinn River viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49626, Flat Lands viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37704, Mountain High River Deep viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37412, River Valley and Rock viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37135, First Attempt viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34097 Cwm Valley viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34049&hilit=cwm+valley


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2016 9:36 pm 
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uktrackbuilder_loco wrote:
In short this was a thereotical discussion and unless you wish to spend your lifetime trying to get that agreement this thread is going nowhere


Given how old this subject is and how everything that could be said about it has probably already been said in countless other posts, maybe moderators should just start auto-locking these threads, at least until any new developments surge which might change things. Repeating the same answers to the same questions is pointless, IMHO.


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:11 am 
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Kalen wrote:
uktrackbuilder_loco wrote:
In short this was a thereotical discussion and unless you wish to spend your lifetime trying to get that agreement this thread is going nowhere


Given how old this subject is and how everything that could be said about it has probably already been said in countless other posts, maybe moderators should just start auto-locking these threads, at least until any new developments surge which might change things. Repeating the same answers to the same questions is pointless, IMHO.


Kalen I couldn't agree more and also in view of the age of this programme now and the fact that there is no official interest in developing any form of follow up by the license holders and only a desire by them to use the programme on Steam etc.

We will have to wait and see if the license holders do abandon their rights at 21 years because LucasArts did not with their output and the successors to Atari may also chose not to abandon their rights in respect of this title or others

I'd say that this game is realistically dead with only support from the Lomo community keeping it alive and even that has declined in the 9 years I've been a site member

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Don't touch that rail!

Scenario's Done are

Broken Hills at the Rivers Mouth viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49627, Sinn River viewtopic.php?f=39&t=49626, Flat Lands viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37704, Mountain High River Deep viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37412, River Valley and Rock viewtopic.php?f=39&t=37135, First Attempt viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34097 Cwm Valley viewtopic.php?f=39&t=34049&hilit=cwm+valley


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:27 pm 
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I think that at this point, it would be probably most sensible to try to come up with reasons (features) why people preferred Locomotion over OpenTTD (beside novelty) and then perhaps try to move OpenTTD development in that direction.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 1:59 pm 
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@luxtram: that may actually be a very sound suggestion. There's a lot of overlap between TTD and Lomo, and when combined with the higher resolution baseset capabilities that OTTD provides, as well as being able to write patches/mods for it, perhaps a Lomo-in-OTTD patch/set might be more feasible, both legally and technically, than an OpenLomo would. This is only a layman's view though, of course, so I might be totally off-base, but who knows?


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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:24 pm 
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luxtram wrote:
I think that at this point, it would be probably most sensible to try to come up with reasons (features) why people preferred Locomotion over OpenTTD (beside novelty) and then perhaps try to move OpenTTD development in that direction.

Smooth curves and realistic trains.

The trains have better detail.

But I miss to allow more vehicles (220 is too low), allow different options in a vehicle, different configurations (number of coaches...) and other interesting features of OpenTTD like the custom railway stations.

Most of the features on Locomotion are doable in OpenTTD with NFO code. For example, a parametric building with a variable number of floors, but the trains and curves can't be changed.

OpenLOMO could be done from a fork of OpenTTD, adding these features:
  • Locomotion landscape.
  • Various levels.
  • Smooth curves and sloped railway tracks.
  • Realistic roads.
  • Realistic trains.
  • Locomotion 2×2 docks (could be added along TTD 2×1 docks).
  • City grow algorithms.

These features would need a work with sprites at the same time that they are developed. If you need, I have sprites ready for use that I have needed in some experiments. I have:
  • Monorail, dirty road and paved road sprites.
  • Terrain sprites (with snow).
  • Some fences.

It could be nice to allow the reading of DAT sprites from locomotion, but we will need to adapt the NFO format of OpenTTD to allow the new sprites needed.

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 Post subject: Re: OpenLocomotion?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 8:26 pm 
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Could you please elaborate these things for me a bit more:

maquinista wrote:
Locomotion landscape.


Do you mean more various heights? I did some mockups (just contours) to get better idea of it. I will look them up if I have time.

maquinista wrote:
Smooth curves and sloped railway tracks.


I think this has been discussed before, and I think I again did some mockups. Again I will look them up given some time.

Do you know how the turning is solved Locomotion? Do they have the same number of model views?

maquinista wrote:
Realistic trains.[*]


Do you mean the resolution or different proportions?

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