Snow or no snow, that is here the question

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Oakman
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Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by Oakman »

Hello,

one stuipid question: Is the snow-top on the mountains limited to the artic setting or does it also work in the temperate setting (above the defined altitude level)?

Thanks a lot!
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by Eddi »

snow is in arctic only. you can change the arctic grass to look like the temperate grass with some newgrfs, though.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by kamnet »

I prefer to run in Arctic environment and then use OpenGFX+ Landscape NewGRF to enable Temperate grass graphics in Arctic, which gets pretty close to simulating a spring/summer/fall/winter seasonal cycle.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by ectm autodoprava »

I would be grateful for the possibility of snow, if it could be used from a certain height even in a mild zone. It would be far more realistic. :bow:
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by erdek »

Always snow!! I think it gives "colour" to the map, helps you to notice the passing of the time and at the very end it's just what it happens in real life in most of the world. I dare to say that it was a mistake of the creators of the game not to include it in temperate!!
Also, it will be nice if someday the snow haves some incidence in the transport as it happens in real life. Yesterday I read something about a train stopped by the snow for 15 days back in 1865 in the North of Spain and i'm sure there's more incidences like that everywhere.
Well, meanwhile when train haves a breakdown in the snow I just think that it's the storm what causes it 😀
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by ChillCore »

Only artic has snow just like only toyland has candy and only tropic has deserts ... just as it should.

Someone tried an "everything all on maps" patch ways back and it did not look good ... like at all.


As mentioned before ... NewGRFs go a long way to adjust things to your likings.
-- .- -.-- / - .... . / ..-. --- .-. -.-. . / -... . / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-.-.-
--- .... / -.-- . .- .... --..-- / .- -. -.. / .--. .-. .- .. ... . / - .... . / .-.. --- .-. -.. / ..-. --- .-. / .... . / --. .- ...- . / ..- ... / -.-. .... --- --- -.-. .... --- --- ... .-.-.- / ---... .--.

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All included patches have been modified and are no longer 100% original.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by LaChupacabra »

ChillCore wrote: 29 Nov 2021 10:11 Only artic has snow just like only toyland has candy and only tropic has deserts ... just as it should.

Someone tried an "everything all on maps" patch ways back and it did not look good ... like at all.
Well, I think conservative views and traumatic experiences can distort true development opportunities. :mrgreen:
Image
New mixed climate.png
New mixed climate.png (497.8 KiB) Viewed 1162 times
I'm joking of course. Aside from how complex it would be to do it right, I think being able to combine different terrains from other climates in one scenario would be very interesting and useful. :)
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by ChillCore »

LaChupacabra wrote: 29 Nov 2021 18:32
ChillCore wrote: 29 Nov 2021 10:11 Only artic has snow just like only toyland has candy and only tropic has deserts ... just as it should.

Someone tried an "everything all on maps" patch ways back and it did not look good ... like at all.
Well, I think conservative views and traumatic experiences can distort true development opportunities. :mrgreen:
They can and often do, yes ... no argueing there
Not sure what traumatic experiences you talk about but if you have a doll I can point at the bad place ... */me points at cranial area*

*snipped imagage for raisins*
I'm joking of course.
You are and no offense taken ;)
Aside from how complex it would be to do it right,
It would be indeed ... it would be interesting to see how someone would deal with re-using the same tags that towngrowth uses (currently) across the different climates and seperating those out without fault with old savegames (if this thing becomes reality)
I think being able to combine different terrains from other climates in one scenario would be very interesting and useful. :)
I guess that is true ... somewhat ... but it would get rid of the different climates and their quirks and is that a good thing?


Anyhoo ... let's assume your screenshot is a first step .. I see two bugs already and no code was writen yet ... no offense intended
- Snow can not creep down to the ocean more then two tiles away.
- Desert can not start less than 4 tiles away from water.
Just saying
-- .- -.-- / - .... . / ..-. --- .-. -.-. . / -... . / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-.-.-
--- .... / -.-- . .- .... --..-- / .- -. -.. / .--. .-. .- .. ... . / - .... . / .-.. --- .-. -.. / ..-. --- .-. / .... . / --. .- ...- . / ..- ... / -.-. .... --- --- -.-. .... --- --- ... .-.-.- / ---... .--.

Playing with my patchpack? Ask questions on usage and report bugs in the correct thread first, please.
All included patches have been modified and are no longer 100% original.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by Eddi »

ChillCore wrote: 30 Nov 2021 00:18 - Snow can not creep down to the ocean more then two tiles away.
- Desert can not start less than 4 tiles away from water.
that's the main problem here. these limitations are not there because nobody thought of allowing it, but it requires new sprite combinations. like desert/water and snow/water. and if you now add the possibility of multiple climates on the same map this explodes. you need new transitions from desert to snow. you need transitions between different grass types, ...
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by LaChupacabra »

Eddi wrote: 30 Nov 2021 03:31
ChillCore wrote: 30 Nov 2021 00:18 - Snow can not creep down to the ocean more then two tiles away.
- Desert can not start less than 4 tiles away from water.
that's the main problem here. these limitations are not there because nobody thought of allowing it, but it requires new sprite combinations. like desert/water and snow/water. and if you now add the possibility of multiple climates on the same map this explodes. you need new transitions from desert to snow. you need transitions between different grass types, ...
Well, I've seen the OpenGFX+Landscape code for river sprites. If it looks similar, well, it may not be difficult, but it is certainly labor-intensive.
However, I think that if there was to be such an option of mixing different landscapes, the transitional graphics should be an overlay of one of the landscapes, and not what was intended for combining always only two specific ones. Then you wouldn't have to code every single possibility. Each landscape would have an ID that would indicate the height of the layer - deserts would be a low layer, grass would land on it, and snow would be high over everything.
ChillCore wrote: 30 Nov 2021 00:18
*snipped imagage for raisins*
These are not so unceremoniously snipped raisins. ;) In the case of the water and the desert border some logic is used which I think could be quite functional. jfs opened a Deep water project some time ago - that water would be "square". Here, I used a mechanism in which, thanks to the added four small sprites, it would be possible to smoothing the depth lines. I also used the same mechanism for the line separating the deserts from the jungle (there is a bug at the shore). And the same mechanism could be used for any other type of terrain. In theory, it seems simple...
[+] Spoiler
The assumption is that each water tile would have 5 layers
  • C - base layer, its color depends on the depth of the point
  • W, N, E, S - four layers located in the corners of the tile, their color depends on the color of two adjacent tiles - if they are of the same color, then they take their color, if the colors are different for both, then they use the color of the central tile
Image
Steps to reproduction;)
Image
ChillCore wrote: 30 Nov 2021 00:18 ... but it would get rid of the different climates and their quirks and is that a good thing?
No, that would be wrong. Rather, I was thinking about adding a new fifth climate where it would be possible to mix different terrains. Not necessarily just the five (six including toyland) basics that are there today. There could be many more (rocky deserts, swamps, savannahs, rocky mountains, frozen lava, ...). They could only differ visually, but also their additional properties could define NewGRF (no buildings, no roads, snow in X-X, need food, need water, construction cost XXX ...). A NewGRF with terrain would include border sprites (overlays) that would be used to smoothly transition between other terrains.
ChillCore wrote: 30 Nov 2021 00:18 Anyhoo ... let's assume your screenshot is a first step .. I see two bugs already and no code was writen yet ...
- Snow can not creep down to the ocean more then two tiles away.
- Desert can not start less than 4 tiles away from water.
It is a matter of changing the code. All the necessary graphics are available today or eventually easy to make. I know, it's easy to write cheerful concepts, especially when you don't really know much about coding. There are times, however, that these ideas sometimes make sense. ;) The assumption of this climate is that the areas can be combined freely. The concept is also based on another idea, where maps consist of layers, where apart from the height layer there are also other layers, including the type of terrain, as well as water and its depth.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by Eddi »

LaChupacabra wrote: 02 Dec 2021 18:31 It is a matter of changing the code. All the necessary graphics are available today or eventually easy to make.
*strongly disagree*
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by LaChupacabra »

Eddi wrote: 03 Dec 2021 15:44
LaChupacabra wrote: 02 Dec 2021 18:31 It is a matter of changing the code. All the necessary graphics are available today or eventually easy to make.
*strongly disagree*
Could you expand a thought? If it's a matter of missing graphics, I find the problem almost nonexistent. Say what's missing, I'll make them, and soon we'll have snow-covered and desert coasts. :D
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by Eddi »

... what exactly is wrong with the previous elaboration i already gave?
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by LaChupacabra »

Eddi wrote: 06 Dec 2021 03:23 ... what exactly is wrong with the previous elaboration i already gave?
I don't know what to write... I wrote that adding the ability to combine different landscapes is a matter of changing the code. You wrote that you strongly disagree with this. So I'm asking, what do you think is the obstacle if it's not code?
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by ChillCore »

I don't want to speak for someone else but I think what Eddi meant is that you will need many, many additional sprites anyway as those you would need simply do not exist. Also 'just' changing the code here and there is a serious underestimation of what will be needed to pull this off properly (*)
^^^ which are the parts he quoted.


Many of us jumped feet first into writing a patch (various) thinking it was 'just' some simple codechange which then turned out to be a serious undertaking taking months and sometimes even years ... this suggestion is no different and will touch way more code than you think ... even if you 'just' add a fifth climate and write the code to make it work (*).

Speaking for myself ... If you do manage to combine all climates (**) I would expect for the towns in this or that climate to behave as they already do.
You could do totally different climates, maybe, but that would only add to the code needed to be written as well as the sprites needed to be created.

(*) Toyland would look quite out of place as many of the industries and buildings are animated and clash with all the other climates.
(**) No easy feat if you know how snow and desert works internally, nvm the requirements for towngrowth I mentioned before.


Anyhoo ...
Don't let any of us stop you in trying what you would like to achieve, if you so desire, but just know that you will have a long long time of development ahead ... there is no 'just' when it comes to OpenTTD; unless you write a 'one-liner' to fix some simple bugsie.
As a guesstimate ... you may be looking at something the size of most patchpacks at least?
-- .- -.-- / - .... . / ..-. --- .-. -.-. . / -... . / .-- .. - .... / -.-- --- ..- .-.-.-
--- .... / -.-- . .- .... --..-- / .- -. -.. / .--. .-. .- .. ... . / - .... . / .-.. --- .-. -.. / ..-. --- .-. / .... . / --. .- ...- . / ..- ... / -.-. .... --- --- -.-. .... --- --- ... .-.-.- / ---... .--.

Playing with my patchpack? Ask questions on usage and report bugs in the correct thread first, please.
All included patches have been modified and are no longer 100% original.
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Re: Snow or no snow, that is here the question

Post by LaChupacabra »

ChillCore wrote: 13 Dec 2021 20:36 I don't want to speak for someone else but I think what Eddi meant is that you will need many, many additional sprites anyway as those you would need simply do not exist. Also 'just' changing the code here and there is a serious underestimation of what will be needed to pull this off properly (*)
^^^ which are the parts he quoted.
Well, I'm of the opinion that most of the graphics are ready or very easy to create. But my approach is to create graphics from several layers of most existing sprites, not to create a thousand variants for every possible combination.
ChillCore wrote: 13 Dec 2021 20:36 Many of us jumped feet first into writing a patch (various) thinking it was 'just' some simple codechange which then turned out to be a serious undertaking taking months and sometimes even years ... this suggestion is no different and will touch way more code than you think ... even if you 'just' add a fifth climate and write the code to make it work (*).
In connection with what I wrote above, I don't think that it will be anything simple. As I wrote, the method I proposed is based on building maps from layers. Perhaps this is quite a revolutionary approach. I don't know.
ChillCore wrote: 13 Dec 2021 20:36 Speaking for myself ... If you do manage to combine all climates (**) I would expect for the towns in this or that climate to behave as they already do.
You could do totally different climates, maybe, but that would only add to the code needed to be written as well as the sprites needed to be created.
The code would be common to all types of landscapes - each landscape would use from certain available properties - adding a next new landscape wouldn't require rewriting the code.
ChillCore wrote: 13 Dec 2021 20:36 Anyhoo ...
Don't let any of us stop you in trying what you would like to achieve, if you so desire, but just know that you will have a long long time of development ahead ... there is no 'just' when it comes to OpenTTD; unless you write a 'one-liner' to fix some simple bugsie.
As a guesstimate ... you may be looking at something the size of most patchpacks at least?
I'm not a programmer. What I do on a daily basis has little to do with the IT industry and in fact, to do anything, I would have to learn everything from scratch. Unfortunately, OTTD alone is not enough to motivate me to devote tens or hundreds of hours to learning. The hope remains that I will inspire someone who already has the knowledge. :D
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