Transport Tycoon Forums

The place to talk about Transport Tycoon
It is currently Fri May 24, 2019 1:55 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:04 am 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
Hello community,

I got a question about FIRS. I actually never encounter expire of secondary production such as grocers shop, petrol station and etc. Is it going to expire someday? I wanted to build up a railway, but for some reason it appeared just before the rail construction :O


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:29 am 
Offline
OpenTTD Developer
OpenTTD Developer

Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:03 am
Posts: 4713
Location: home
The Grf has a number of settings that controls expiration of industries. I think by default they are 'off', but you should check their value in your game to be sure.

_________________
Being a OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.
Also, other OpenTTD developers may have different opinions.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:28 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4854
Location: Lost in Music
FIRS has some town industries (grocers shop, petrol station, builders yard, maybe a few more) that _should_ never expire. :)

Other secondary industries will expire if closure is enabled in the grf parameters.

I've never actually tested the town industries expiry, and nobody has reported a bug with it, so eh :twisted:

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:05 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
Oh, I see. Nonetheless I could argue on that - such industries should to expire, if nothing is being shipped for a while. :P Is there any chance to have such setting in the future, aka let player to decide?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:38 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:15 pm
Posts: 6577
Location: Eastern KY
RedEclipse wrote:
Oh, I see. Nonetheless I could argue on that - such industries should to expire, if nothing is being shipped for a while. :P Is there any chance to have such setting in the future, aka let player to decide?


I would have a problem with this. If the industry inside a town expires, then it will be deleted and another building will be placed. This will push the building of town industries further out of the city, and might possibly never be built if the city doesn't expand, and needs an in-town industry in order to expand.

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Image

Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:20 am 
Offline
Graphics Moderator
Graphics Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:21 pm
Posts: 5380
Location: The Moon
kamnet wrote:
This will push the building of town industries further out of the city, and might possibly never be built if the city doesn't expand, and needs an in-town industry in order to expand.


Why? Industries built within towns can be explicitly coded to replace town buildings (as the default bank is) rather than requiring empty space, and industry spawning is not linked to town expansion.

_________________
Pikkarail.com blog | Patreon
Current development: UKRS3 - Av9.8 - TaI32 - CivilAI
Dev reference: NML Specs - NewGRF Specs - Savegame Internals - NoAI API - NoGo API


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:39 am 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:15 pm
Posts: 6577
Location: Eastern KY
PikkaBird wrote:
kamnet wrote:
This will push the building of town industries further out of the city, and might possibly never be built if the city doesn't expand, and needs an in-town industry in order to expand.


Why? Industries built within towns can be explicitly coded to replace town buildings (as the default bank is) rather than requiring empty space, and industry spawning is not linked to town expansion.


I do not believe that FIRS town industries are currently coded this way. Or, at least, in my many years of gameplay I have never seen a FIRS town industry spawn inside a town zone outside of initial game creation. And in many cases with FIRS industries it can be extremely difficult to place a town industry because it requires certain zone IDs that don't exist in an area where you would like to manually place one. Andy is free to correct me.

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Image

Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:20 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
kamnet wrote:
PikkaBird wrote:
kamnet wrote:
This will push the building of town industries further out of the city, and might possibly never be built if the city doesn't expand, and needs an in-town industry in order to expand.


Why? Industries built within towns can be explicitly coded to replace town buildings (as the default bank is) rather than requiring empty space, and industry spawning is not linked to town expansion.


I do not believe that FIRS town industries are currently coded this way. Or, at least, in my many years of gameplay I have never seen a FIRS town industry spawn inside a town zone outside of initial game creation. And in many cases with FIRS industries it can be extremely difficult to place a town industry because it requires certain zone IDs that don't exist in an area where you would like to manually place one. Andy is free to correct me.

I can't be sure absolutely, but I think I saw few hardware stores/grocers shops spawned close to skyscapers, although I don't know is area was occupied by city building or not.

And bit of off topic - what optimal setting for goods distribution? I currently got asymmetric mode for industrial commodities and faced a problem with it, it seems some trains wait forever to get loaded with engineering/farm supplies. Manual mode for industry commodities will make more sense, I guess?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:34 pm 
Offline
Tycoon
Tycoon
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:23 pm
Posts: 4854
Location: Lost in Music
RedEclipse wrote:
And bit of off topic - what optimal setting for goods distribution? I currently got asymmetric mode for industrial commodities and faced a problem with it, it seems some trains wait forever to get loaded with engineering/farm supplies

There isn't one. :twisted:

On 'manual' you will lose the main benefit of cdist, which is automated transfers on feeder routes. If you don't need feeders, use manual distribution.

I have seen the problem you describe many times: cdist can't reliably assign freight cargo when you add a new route to a station that already has a route established. Eventually it will assign cargo to the new route, usually after about 3 months, but it can take up to about 15 months in the worst cases iirc. The 'solution' to that is to use separate pickup station for every destination you need to serve.

I run FIRS with asymmetric for freight cargos, and 'effect of distance on demand' set to 0%. It's not ideal, but I understand how to make it work in gameplay.

Fonso did spend some time trying to improve how cdist handles this, but it's not really solvable within current cdist afaik.

_________________
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (Released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (Finished)
Squid Ate FISH (ships) (Released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (Finished)
Iron Horse (trains, released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse, released) | Busy Bee (game script, released)

Road Hog (road vehicles, released)


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:31 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:15 pm
Posts: 6577
Location: Eastern KY
CargoDist can keep you on your toes. In one of my longest running games (nearly 9 years in real life gameplay now!) I have to keep an eye out on my distribution centers that I built to manage cargo. Sometimes I'll add a new route from a DC to a town, and without any warning, some time later, CargoDist has decided to shift a bunch of traffic to it, leaving me with a fleet of vehicles queued up waiting for cargo for the older stations that aren't getting as much as they used to, leading to huge snarl-ups at my DC. I've got a backload of cargo that's expiring, my station ratings have tanked, my vehicle reliability is shot, everything has turned into an unprofitable mess.

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Image

Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:51 am 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
andythenorth wrote:
There isn't one. :twisted:

On 'manual' you will lose the main benefit of cdist, which is automated transfers on feeder routes. If you don't need feeders, use manual distribution.

I have seen the problem you describe many times: cdist can't reliably assign freight cargo when you add a new route to a station that already has a route established. Eventually it will assign cargo to the new route, usually after about 3 months, but it can take up to about 15 months in the worst cases iirc. The 'solution' to that is to use separate pickup station for every destination you need to serve.

I run FIRS with asymmetric for freight cargos, and 'effect of distance on demand' set to 0%. It's not ideal, but I understand how to make it work in gameplay.

Fonso did spend some time trying to improve how cdist handles this, but it's not really solvable within current cdist afaik.

The thing is, I left my game for a coupe of hours (like 10+ years in game) but trains were still empty. I think I'll go with manual setting for goods. Though as you point I got multiple feeder stations, but it works wonderful with manual mode. Did I missed something?

kamnet wrote:
CargoDist can keep you on your toes. In one of my longest running games (nearly 9 years in real life gameplay now!) I have to keep an eye out on my distribution centers that I built to manage cargo. Sometimes I'll add a new route from a DC to a town, and without any warning, some time later, CargoDist has decided to shift a bunch of traffic to it, leaving me with a fleet of vehicles queued up waiting for cargo for the older stations that aren't getting as much as they used to, leading to huge snarl-ups at my DC. I've got a backload of cargo that's expiring, my station ratings have tanked, my vehicle reliability is shot, everything has turned into an unprofitable mess.

Indeed, I think it behaves a bit buggy for my taste when it comes to goods. For eyecandy purposes multiple stations for delivering supplies is no way for me :)



BTW guys, can you tell me is there any GRF for default trains for FIRS set? I saw one, but it comes with built-in colors for some train wagons, which cannot be changed. I remember there was GRF which adopt default vans for FIRS, but uses old wagons.


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:40 pm 
Offline
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 28, 2009 5:15 pm
Posts: 6577
Location: Eastern KY
RedEclipse wrote:
BTW guys, can you tell me is there any GRF for default trains for FIRS set? I saw one, but it comes with built-in colors for some train wagons, which cannot be changed. I remember there was GRF which adopt default vans for FIRS, but uses old wagons.


If you like the original trains but only desire FIRS compatibility, download OpenGFX+ Trains. Andythenorth also produces the fine Iron Horse set, which is slightly inspired by real British and American trains. And nearly all NewGRF train sets released in the last decade will have support for FIRS.

_________________
Do you like drones, quadcopters & flying toys? Check out Drone Strike Force!
Image

Base Music Sets: OpenMSX | Scott Joplin Anthology | Traditional Winter Holiday Music | Modern Motion Music
Other Projects: 2CC Trams | Modern Waypoints | Sprite Sandbox & NewGRF Releases | Ideabox | Town Names | Isle of Sodor Scenario | Random Sprite Repository
Misc Topics: My Screenshots | Forgotten NewGRFs | Unfinished Graphics Sets | Stats Shack | RoadTypes?


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:49 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Cyberspace
RedEclipse wrote:
Hello community,

I got a question about FIRS. I actually never encounter expire of secondary production such as grocers shop, petrol station and etc. Is it going to expire someday? I wanted to build up a railway, but for some reason it appeared just before the rail construction :O

Hello! You could cheat: press ctrl-alt-C, enable magic bulldozer. Then you can demolish it. The game will remember the fact that you used magic bulldozer, but there's no other penalty.

I used it to get rid of the rubber plantation at the far right of this screenshot, which was 'never' going to expire because of the huge production it had reached. That made a lot more room for the junction. Similar with a bank belonging to Bradnor just off the left side of the screenshot, although that side wasn't so cramped. I ended up using it quite a lot in that game.

_________________
Extreme network builder. screenshot thread


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 3:43 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 4:00 pm
Posts: 38
kamnet wrote:
RedEclipse wrote:
BTW guys, can you tell me is there any GRF for default trains for FIRS set? I saw one, but it comes with built-in colors for some train wagons, which cannot be changed. I remember there was GRF which adopt default vans for FIRS, but uses old wagons.


If you like the original trains but only desire FIRS compatibility, download OpenGFX+ Trains. Andythenorth also produces the fine Iron Horse set, which is slightly inspired by real British and American trains. And nearly all NewGRF train sets released in the last decade will have support for FIRS.

I might was wrong when said about default trains(because for me default ones is vanilla). Meant trains with TT graphics. I remember that I wasn't able to use them together. Or I'm wrong?

eekee wrote:
RedEclipse wrote:
Hello community,

I got a question about FIRS. I actually never encounter expire of secondary production such as grocers shop, petrol station and etc. Is it going to expire someday? I wanted to build up a railway, but for some reason it appeared just before the rail construction :O

Hello! You could cheat: press ctrl-alt-C, enable magic bulldozer. Then you can demolish it. The game will remember the fact that you used magic bulldozer, but there's no other penalty.

I used it to get rid of the rubber plantation at the far right of this screenshot, which was 'never' going to expire because of the huge production it had reached. That made a lot more room for the junction. Similar with a bank belonging to Bradnor just off the left side of the screenshot, although that side wasn't so cramped. I ended up using it quite a lot in that game.

Thanks for your input, but if I would go for it(though I never participated it in live scenario), I would go just for scenario editor. Destroying everything without being flagged as cheater :D


Top
   
 Post subject: Re: Question about FIRS
PostPosted: Sun Apr 28, 2019 3:48 pm 
Offline
Engineer
Engineer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:45 pm
Posts: 88
Location: Cyberspace
RedEclipse wrote:
Thanks for your input, but if I would go for it(though I never participated it in live scenario), I would go just for scenario editor. Destroying everything without being flagged as cheater :D

Hahaha! :D

_________________
Extreme network builder. screenshot thread


Top
   
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  Reply to topic  [ 15 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000-2019 phpBB Limited

Copyright © Owen Rudge/The Transport Tycoon Forums 2001-2019.
Hosted by Zernebok Hosting.