loading unloading time

[ANIKHTOS]

does anyone knows how the game load and unload cargo in train stations??

i mean there is a speed limit of how fast you can load a train??
is it a limit at the level of station??


and one more relative question
the time to deliver cargo is calculated from when?
from the time the train is in stain and goes to 0% load??

i made an experiment and in one line of coal i split the trains into half size train
the train had already 2 engines so the split was nice and clean

then i run the 2 new games parallel to see how that line will perfom

and in matter of profit or transport capacity they performed the same

which means that the load speed of a train is not fix but rather the game uses a station load speed

also i watch them go unload and both trains took 4 days to unload their cargo


i was afraid of traffic jams due to doubling the number of traisn nut because they were smaller there were actual less problems in the network


i also noticed that with the small traisn the station was loading 2 trains at the same time
i check the other stations in the game to see if something is broken but the other station with long trains were loading only 1 train at the time

why the game in the smaller train length 3.5 tiles load 2 at the same time?? and not try to load 1 first and then the other??

i include the 2 sav games if you want to see the behaviour of the network with long trains 7 tiles and small 3.5 tiles train

the station that was tested is called coal03

[Alberth]

Loading speed is a property of the wagon, that is defined in NewGRF. Different wagons can have different loading speeds thus.
Don't know what the default set does, likely the answer is in one of the table source files, in src/tbl iirc.

Cargo starts counting when it gets loaded onto the wagon I think. This and many other answers can be found at the wiki in "Game Mechanics". Not sure you should read it though, as it contains a lot of spoilers.


For train loading, not only look at the trains, but also at the available cargo at the station. The default is "improved loading" nowadays, which allocates cargo to one train at the time. Once the cargo is allocated, loading starts. If there is cargo left at the station, that cargo gets allocated to other trains. Since allocation is faster than loading, you can have several trains loading if there is sufficient cargo available.
The non-improved loading strategy always loads all available trains at the same time, even when there is not sufficient cargo, a quite silly strategy .

[ANIKHTOS]

Cargo starts counting when it gets loaded onto the wagon I think. This and many other answers can be found at the wiki in "Game Mechanics". Not sure you should read it though, as it contains a lot of spoilers.
.

https://wiki.openttd.org/Game_Mechanics
is there any other page?/
this one i have read it years ago and i read it again before i ask the question

so the question still stands a train with 0% loaded does it is consider that it has been loaded zero units?? or it is consider empty??

playing the same save game again and again allow me to draw some safe conclusion since the scenario is always the same

in the small train save when i remove 3 of them just put them in the depot
the profit was the same which means i transfer the same amount of coal so they were not really missed

the cargo sttats for the station jumped 100 units in 1 year cycle

Don't know what the default set does, likely the answer is in one of the table source files, in src/tbl iirc.
.

where can i find this tables too look into them??

For train loading, not only look at the trains, but also at the available cargo at the station. The default is "improved loading" nowadays, which allocates cargo to one train at the time. Once the cargo is allocated, loading starts. If there is cargo left at the station, that cargo gets allocated to other trains. Since allocation is faster than loading, you can have several trains loading if there is sufficient cargo available.
The non-improved loading strategy always loads all available trains at the same time, even when there is not sufficient cargo, a quite silly strategy .

yes i remember the old strategy from the original game
i avoid it as much as possible especially in new stations

with the grf i play mostly standard it seems that the game prefers and give bonus to big trains to small trains


how the train is loaded all wagon are loaded at the same time? or first 1 wagon and then the other??

when you click the information of the train you get the impression that it loads wagon after wagon
butt playing the 2 save behave it seems rather that is loads all wagons at the same time

the information just graphical represents the process but does not show the actual work in the background

is loading unloading time the same?/ or it can be different??


i know too many question in depth of the game

i was a bit supriced by my test
my thinking was smaller train will load faster leave station sooner so with the cargo depending on the day travelled it could make it have more profit

which i did not see
both the short trains and the long trains perform the same in 1 year profit cycle.

THANKS FOR YOU HELP AND ANSWERS

[Alberth]

so the question still stands a train with 0% loaded does it is consider that it has been loaded zero units?? or it is consider empty??

Open the train window, and see. 0% is probably the rounded down result after normalizing the cacrgo capacity to 100%, so if you have 500 tonnes cargo, 2 tonnes would show as 0%.

in the small train save when i remove 3 of them just put them in the depot
the profit was the same which means i transfer the same amount of coal so they were not really missed

Open the station window too, if there is always sufficient cargo laying around at the station when the train arrives, it loads as fast as possible, and sets off to deliver it to the destination.

the cargo sttats for the station jumped 100 units in 1 year cycle

Industry produces 8 or 9 times a month, and dumps some amount of cargo at the station then. At that moment the cargo allocation kicks in, and assigns the new cargo to the train(s).

where can i find this tables too look into them??

https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob ... /engines.h Looks like CARGO_AGING_TICKS is the value you should find. No idea where that is, but 'grep' or 'ack' or 'ag' is your fiend to search through source files.

with the grf i play mostly standard it seems that the game prefers and give bonus to big trains to small trains

Not sure how that happens as you stated "profit is the same for long and short trains".
The default set is just one way of playing the game, where imho the biggest disadvantage is the forced upgrade to monorail and then again to maglev. NewGRF sets are customized to other playing styles, and often avoid the forced upgrade in one way or another.

Using NewGRF really changes the game. Biggest puzzle here is to find NewGRFs that match with your play style.

how the train is loaded all wagon are loaded at the same time? or first 1 wagon and then the other??

Afaik allocation is not done by train, but actually by wagon. There are corner cases there that require careful assigning cargoes, due to automatic refit of wagons (which I haven't fully explored). But you get the same allocation + loading idea between wagons that you also see between trains. When the first wagon has enough cargo allocated, the second cargo gets cargo allocated, etc. Loading runs in parallel for all wagons that have allocated cargo that is not loaded yet.

when you click the information of the train you get the impression that it loads wagon after wagon
butt playing the 2 save behave it seems rather that is loads all wagons at the same time

Yep, no cargo is allocated to the second wagon until the first one has all its cargo allocated.

the information just graphical represents the process but does not show the actual work in the background

cargo available at the station (which gets supplied by industries every now and then), si split into allocated heaps for each wagon, with the limitation that a new heap for another wagon is only started if all the previous wagons have sufficient cargo.
Each wagon that has cargo for it on its heap which is not in the wagon, loads some amount, depending on the loading speed of the wagon.

So yeah, the heaps for each wagon is not individually shown, but otherwise, the graphics do show this process. If you enable cargo-dist, you can even see the lists allocated cargo for each train, in the station window.

is loading unloading time the same?/ or it can be different??

No idea, NewGRF specs can tell you. Someone who codes train newgrfs likely knows this without looking it up.

i know too many question in depth of the game

Good thing the source of the game that provides all the answers is freely available. It contains more information than I know too.

i was a bit supriced by my test
my thinking was smaller train will load faster leave station sooner so with the cargo depending on the day travelled it could make it have more profit

It also depends on the amount of cargo provided by the industries, and landscape (hills are more difficult for longer trains).

In the save I loaded, you seem to flatten the landscape for the tracks, I used to do that too, but I found the game becomes more fun if you don't. Instead of ploughing through the mountains, run the train around it. It gives you additional puzzles of where to put the track such that delivery is still fast.

[ANIKHTOS]

when a trains enter a station all go to 0%
and all have 0 tonnes cargo

so the question is when the time begins when the train is in loadign mode? and has 0% with 0 tonnes cargo
or when it get the first unic of cargo??


Industry produces 8 or 9 times a month, and dumps some amount of cargo at the station then. At that moment the cargo allocation kicks in, and assigns the new cargo to the train(s).

well i was talking about the stars fo the station for cargo units delivered
when i went from 15 small trains to 13 small trains for the exact same period of time
just load the save game with the 15 train then load the game send 3 to depot and watch what happened
the cargo delivered in the station window was more by 100 units for the 1 year i run the test
so with less trains waiting in the station the delivered stars actual went up and the money for the group of that route was a tiny bit more

well i know cargo is lost due time passing
but i do not know the exact mechanics when it kicks in.
and with empty trains waiting in the station i do not get why i do not get 100% transport for the mine??

No idea where that is, but 'grep' or 'ack' or 'ag' is your fiend to search through source files.
what is grep or ack or ag???

Not sure how that happens as you stated "profit is the same for long and short trains".
because i was expecting smaller train will load faster , and thus leave earlier the station thus deliver the cargo earlier thus make more money
but the unloading times were the same for both trains somewhere between 3-4 days the loading difference was not as big as i expected so in the end they make practical the same amount of money but if you want to be 100% accurate the long trains make around 10k more

which means from the unloading times and the item loading that the train loads all wagons at the same time
thus the idea i had to have smaller train to win time with the game mechanics is not possible

in the test scenario i used the benefit was 3 days in loading time
and we can put that entering the depot and coming out saves another 5 days and it will do it 2 times per year so it will end up saving 10 days from servicing

well coal is a bad industry to make the test since it loose value very slow ti would be better if i could have a valuable to test


Afaik allocation is not done by train, but actually by wagon. There are corner cases there that require careful assigning cargoes, due to automatic refit of wagons (which I haven't fully explored). But you get the same allocation + loading idea between wagons that you also see between trains. When the first wagon has enough cargo allocated, the second cargo gets cargo allocated, etc. Loading runs in parallel for all wagons that have allocated cargo that is not loaded yet.

in the test i did not see the behaviour you are saying
it was all wagons at same time loading and unloading

cargo available at the station (which gets supplied by industries every now and then), si split into allocated heaps for each wagon, with the limitation that a new heap for another wagon is only started if all the previous wagons have sufficient cargo.
Each wagon that has cargo for it on its heap which is not in the wagon, loads some amount, depending on the loading speed of the wagon.

So yeah, the heaps for each wagon is not individually shown, but otherwise, the graphics do show this process. If you enable cargo-dist, you can even see the lists allocated cargo for each train, in the station window.

i did not see that behaviour you are saying
you are talking about serial behaviour which i had in mind doing the experiment and if was true it would save me tons of time but was not the case or maybe i am getting something wrong here

lets see some numbers
the coal mine in the test had 2040 production with 83% delivered and the station was reporting 1688 units delivered
the small train is loaded with 187 units of cargo so that means in 1 month will be enough to fill 9,02 trains so lets say 9 trains
which means it will take 3.325 days to fill up a train
3 4 8 11 14 18 22 25 28 the day number a train exit the station for the first month which we see it is 4 and 3 days apart waht we would expect is what we see

the first 90% of load seem to go smooth and fast and then the last 10% looks to take some extra time to complete!?!?

so you say it dumps cargo 8=9 times per month the coal has 2040 production which mean 255 unit per dump and also that will make the dump every 4 days more or less with 9 dump every 3 days we will get 227 units right??
the long train need 384 units to load which will mean 2 dumps for the 8 dump scenario or 3 dump for the 9 dump scenario
which will make 8 or 9 days in station
27 4 8 14 21 24s 29 4 the 24s is a small train in the group of the big trains
but we see the train leave in 7 days!?!?!? something does not add up

In the save I loaded, you seem to flatten the landscape for the tracks, I used to do that too, but I found the game becomes more fun if you don't. Instead of ploughing through the mountains, run the train around it. It gives you additional puzzles of where to put the track such that delivery is still fast.

well the test industry i choose this small one to play around if you show the other stations they are on hill and the train need to climp8 level difference.

well now i am playing to test stations and junctions

did you like the station layout??
it may not look like it but itt is a ro ro station lol
it can handle 4 train at same time 2 entering and 2 exiting
in other save games i have even more compact station than this one that still allow 2 train at same time 1 to enter 1 to leave
the trick is that the train occupy platforms with a priority

this station may look in first like a terminal but it is a fully functional ro ro station with 1 train enter 1 train leave at same time
number of thein enter and leave is limited to the lines you have to the station connecting it to the network

in my experimental stations of now the platforms have a priority number 1 2, 3 to the number of platforms
train always try to go to platform 1 if filled to platform 2 and so on and so on

so that gives you an advantage for the layout of the tracts because you know from which platforms trains will leave and in which platforms train will try to enter. giving a priority to incoming trains so they will not slow down

so in the end every incoming outgoing train can claim a path in and out of the station
with the small trains even with train break down entering or leaving the station it still kept the station going

[Alberth]

Your stations are nice, but I am scared about the small number of entry and exit lines.

I often do pairwise connections, like

Screenshot_20180601_175630.png (304.42 KiB) Viewed 4572 times

2 incoming lines which get distributed over 3x2 platforms using a bridge. Outgoing trains go under the bridge. In this way, incoming and outgoing traffic blocks each other for a very short period only.

For the really busy stations, I switch to roro, where I make sure an empty train is waiting to enter the platform before the loading ends, so each platform is as much loading as possible.

Screenshot_20180601_180254.png (315.11 KiB) Viewed 4572 times

[ANIKHTOS]

Your stations are nice, but I am scared about the small number of entry and exit lines.

I often do pairwise connections, like Screenshot_20180601_175630.png 2 incoming lines which get distributed over 3x2 platforms using a bridge. Outgoing trains go under the bridge. In this way, incoming and outgoing traffic blocks each other for a very short period only.

For the really busy stations, I switch to roro, where I make sure an empty train is waiting to enter the platform before the loading ends, so each platform is as much loading as possible. Screenshot_20180601_180254.png

it all comes down to the station
and to how many stations you deliver

if you have a coal mine usual you will deliver the coal to 1 sttation
so 1 line to go and 1 line to enter is all you needed, if design correct there will be no problem

city station.png (88.33 KiB) Viewed 4502 times

experimental city station to make an in city transport station and since the passengers are very time sensitive the train will be short to load as fast as possible

citystation2.png (80.99 KiB) Viewed 4502 times

here you see the set up in all its glory, where 12 vacuum trains are served with no jam or slowing down

and since trains are loaded 1 after another you only need 1 exit line per cargo at the station
in delivery stations you have more problems since trains can come from different industries at same time
so there the need for more entry exit lines is more needed

even with 1 entry lien 1 exit line in my design i have no problem with jaming okey since i play with breakdowns when a train break yes there will be a small delay
i used to lay 4 lien track but now i use 2 lien track and i do not see much of problems


well i am trying to make smart design to make the design as compact as possible

i even used diagonal lines as the main line routes
see the compact save

the footprint of the station went very low, and we have 2 incoming lien 2 outgoing lines.


and here is the trick how this will work with no jams
the incoming to the station is always in the middle and the outgoing in the outside of the 4 lines

when an incoming train reserves a path to enter it does not block the outgoing train because it can find to reserve a path in the outskirts of the lines
even if the outgoing train path first and block a more desired platform when the incoming train come s it will just go to the best desired available platform

and compact stations are great for non thermoforming games
and you said you want to play like that

in the save game you saw i only terraform to make the line straight the trains stil go up and down hills
and even that the stations have the compact 1 line in 1 line out there is efficient network going traffic

if you like to play at mountain terrain compact design are paramount

[ANIKHTOS]

Your stations are nice, but I am scared about the small number of entry and exit lines.

I often do pairwise connections, like Screenshot_20180601_175630.png 2 incoming lines which get distributed over 3x2 platforms using a bridge. Outgoing trains go under the bridge. In this way, incoming and outgoing traffic blocks each other for a very short period only.

For the really busy stations, I switch to roro, where I make sure an empty train is waiting to enter the platform before the loading ends, so each platform is as much loading as possible. Screenshot_20180601_180254.png

nice stations
a bit chaotic for my taste if you noticed i like symmetry
and the more symmetry the better

my design is a ro ro station even if it does not look like that

well how we define a ro ro station as a station where train can enter and leave at same time??
then my station is a ro ro station

the odd is that i make the entry exit of station from the same side making them more compact
and since you want your trains to return were they come from the outgoing lines is even more compact since there is no turning evolved

so in the footprint created from the incoming aspect of the station then we overlap the outgoing aspect of the station
and twith some crazy concept this are mixed but work separated

test lines.png (538.33 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

here to see examples how the magic works
i put colour lines to show possible incoming outgoing trains

as you can see te design is the most possible compact and still all incoming trains can see all available platforms to enter
and also they will start filling the station symmetrical 1 train up 1 train down
which will put no pressure in the outgoing lines to have more traffic than the incoming lines
even if you have from one side an outgoing train that will block all platform the train will just ignore that part of the station and go to the other side of station

trains try to go to the most desired available platform when they arrive
so even if you have a break down from an outgoing train in one part all traffic will go to the other side and the station will be working !!!!


the 6x6space monster is a station that will have free space to surround an industry will have 2 incoming and 2 outgoing lien from each side for a total of 16 trains at same time 8 incoming 8 outgoing trains

the main lines are also connected to each other !!! to use them for trains that wil just pass through this monster

but there are no connection to connect the lines with other lines

i just connect the straight liens to keep going

[ANIKHTOS]

Your stations are nice, but I am scared about the small number of entry and exit lines.

I often do pairwise connections, like Screenshot_20180601_175630.png 2 incoming lines which get distributed over 3x2 platforms using a bridge. Outgoing trains go under the bridge. In this way, incoming and outgoing traffic blocks each other for a very short period only.

For the really busy stations, I switch to roro, where I make sure an empty train is waiting to enter the platform before the loading ends, so each platform is as much loading as possible. Screenshot_20180601_180254.png

here is my take for your station

the maglev lines means railroad that will be removed because it is absolete
the noemal rail is the rail of your existing desgin
and monorail is the proposed changes to make it work

i limit your incoming lines to 1 from 2 but if you want you can keep them both

you will have to move the diagonal to come a bit further north

i give you the test game i made to make the changes it is always easier to see thing inside the game


try it and tell me what you see??

[Alberth]

Ha, fun experiment!

I copied the design into the game, and got

station

Screenshot_20180602_111930.png (191.34 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

I let it run for a while, and it stays like this, which is not really surprising, as there are 2 paths in, and 1 path out, so the outgoing line is the bottleneck here.
See that most trains are not loading or unloading? That means they are waiting to get out.

There is a huge backlog of waiting trains (practically every train is waiting, other stations are mostly empty)

backlog

Screenshot_20180602_112103.png (124.97 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

I tried doubling the exit lane, which helps but not enough.


If you want to have a go, load this file and release 'pause'

Sarhill Transport, 2007-04-08b.sav

let the games begin

(137.83 KiB) Downloaded 32 times

It uses a number of NewGRFs, but they are all available from the ingame content downloader.

[ANIKHTOS]

Ha, fun experiment!

I copied the design into the game, and gotScreenshot_20180602_111930.pngI let it run for a while, and it stays like this, which is not really surprising, as there are 2 paths in, and 1 path out, so the outgoing line is the bottleneck here.
See that most trains are not loading or unloading? That means they are waiting to get out.

There is a huge backlog of waiting trains (practically every train is waiting, other stations are mostly empty)Screenshot_20180602_112103.pngI tried doubling the exit lane, which helps but not enough.


If you want to have a go, load this file and release 'pause' :)Sarhill Transport, 2007-04-08b.savIt uses a number of NewGRFs, but they are all available from the ingame content downloader.

okey now that i had the whole picture of the network i see what was the problem
the nidworth route
i sent it to the station front he wrong side of the platforms
instead of having all trains enter from same side
i send nidworth from the other side


this station design need traisn to enter from specific side and go out from specific side
nudworth was damaging this symmetry

i add 2 more slots just in case it took me a bit to get an idea where the trains want to go

[ANIKHTOS]

Ha, fun experiment!

I copied the design into the game, and gotScreenshot_20180602_111930.pngI let it run for a while, and it stays like this, which is not really surprising, as there are 2 paths in, and 1 path out, so the outgoing line is the bottleneck here.
See that most trains are not loading or unloading? That means they are waiting to get out.

There is a huge backlog of waiting trains (practically every train is waiting, other stations are mostly empty)Screenshot_20180602_112103.pngI tried doubling the exit lane, which helps but not enough.


If you want to have a go, load this file and release 'pause' :)Sarhill Transport, 2007-04-08b.savIt uses a number of NewGRFs, but they are all available from the ingame content downloader.

i improve it a bit more the exit part
simplify the design which was too complex for no reason

it works like a charm now

[ANIKHTOS]

i change it a bit more to give you to exit lines from the the one side

it raised the trains able to handle at same time

enjoy

[Alberth]

Nice

Lots of trains are waiting at the station to get out, entry and exit tracks to the other station were not sufficient any more.

[ANIKHTOS]

Nice

Lots of trains are waiting at the station to get out, entry and exit tracks to the other station were not sufficient any more.

well with a part of the network i could not tell from how many directions the trains were coming into the station
and where they wanted to go

with the save game i saw what was happening and i made the adjustments

you had 3 incoming points so i increase the liens to 3 from 1 and problem solved

also if you noticed i clean up the exit lines a lot
and there is still no problem in exit but with fewer track use

i have seen 4 trains serviced in the station at same time now
2 entering and 2 coming out

i think my station has smaller footprint?? from yours??
so which design you consider more efficient??

[ANIKHTOS]

Nice

Lots of trains are waiting at the station to get out, entry and exit tracks to the other station were not sufficient any more.

4train.png (362.53 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

4 trains
the red are incoming
the blue are going out

4 trains served at same time

how it works.png (359.38 KiB) Viewed 1244 times

the blue lines are the exit lines
the red lines are the entry lines
and the green lines are the help lines

as long there are empty platforms the red lines will be used else they will not

while everything looks packed and over connected in reality they are not that much connected

because even when the exit train seems they will block the incoming trains in many scenarios there will be another platform that will still be accessible form the incoming trains
in a very specific scenario the outgoing train will block the incoming ones


in the majority of the operation you will avoid the worse case scenario which will occur only if all platforms are filled
as it is now your station there are 2-4 empty platforms with 3 the usual empty ones

which means that every time there will be a platform for the incoming to enter and not blocked from the out-coming

and this station is not my usual design since i make my traffic to come from one direction and ship it from there

it was a nice exersice
THANK YOU

[ANIKHTOS]

Nice

Lots of trains are waiting at the station to get out, entry and exit tracks to the other station were not sufficient any more.

and a completely re write of your network

not finished yet
soem small detail to finish out but you can get a sneak preview of what is going to happen
i upgrade all the network to monorail and i am groupign the traisn so they are easier to monitor


i need a few more hours to group upgrade traisn to monorail
and do some detail re design in the route

but a sneak preview of things to come


cheers
do nto let the trian out fo the depots they network is not ready yet but soon

[Alberth]

Ha, yes, upgrade was necessary to continue the gtame. I don't even remember some parts, but I played the game in 2014, I think the first game where I transported cargo at this scale.

Your rework shows how much cruft you collect in the network when you play for 50 years, although progress in engine power also helps here, you need less monorail trains for the same amount of cargo transport.


If you like freight transport challenges, I can recommend playing the "freight train challenge 100" scenario viewtopic.php?f=60&t=59689
Very little room to move a lot of cargo around

[ANIKHTOS]

Ha, yes, upgrade was necessary to continue the gtame. I don't even remember some parts, but I played the game in 2014, I think the first game where I transported cargo at this scale.

Your rework shows how much cruft you collect in the network when you play for 50 years, although progress in engine power also helps here, you need less monorail trains for the same amount of cargo transport.


If you like freight transport challenges, I can recommend playing the "freight train challenge 100" scenario viewtopic.php?f=60&t=59689
Very little room to move a lot of cargo around

beign sick the last days so no progress done
i upgrade all diesel trains to monorail
and i used the replace order for the monorail ones
was a bit bored to do it manual

start the trains

fixed a few bug in some trains and stations blocking each other

not all stations are refit to my standards but the majority of the network is

so what you say now??

[ANIKHTOS]

lol i fix a few more hickups in the trains
oh the joke on me now you can build maglev rail
if only i waited 1 year before i upgrade the rail i could have gone to that one .

check the routes
i put the trains in the routes but maybe the wagons are wrong cargo type