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 Post subject: train length question
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:40 am 
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what is your favourite train length in the game??

i use the standard settings so i can make a max train of 7 tiles


but i like to have 2 engines for better acceleration and faster going to max speed

so my question

would i be better off instead having a 7 tile train with 2 engines to split it into 2 train of 3,5 tiles length??

the 3,5 length train with 1 engine will it accelerate as fast at the 2 engine 7 tile train??

while i will have more trains in the game the will be smaller

so which way to go??

7 tile train or 3,5 tile train??


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:54 am 
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So, all "will it go faster" is a question of power. A single locomotive, such the MTAB Iore from 2cc TrainsInNML, can easily pull a train of 600 tonnes, because it provides 14,000 hp IIRC.

My preferred length is 5-7 for mainlines and 3 for urban or local lines, sometimes 2 for express urban transit using small engines (e.g 1 tile units like the SM'90 from the Dutch Trainset).

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:39 am 
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acs121 wrote:
So, all "will it go faster" is a question of power. A single locomotive, such the MTAB Iore from 2cc TrainsInNML, can easily pull a train of 600 tonnes, because it provides 14,000 hp IIRC.

My preferred length is 5-7 for mainlines and 3 for urban or local lines, sometimes 2 for express urban transit using small engines (e.g 1 tile units like the SM'90 from the Dutch Trainset).


the question is not going faster since they will be using the same engine
the question was will they accelerate the same?/ or one fo them will accelerate faster from the other
i like to get the max speed as fast as possible
and as the game goes on it seems the 2 engine for a 7 tile train to do the trick


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:44 am 
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Hold on. Which engine are you using, what is it's max speed, power and tractive effort ?
(speed in kph, power in hp and TE in kgf)

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:13 am 
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ANIKHTOS wrote:
the 3,5 length train with 1 engine will it accelerate as fast at the 2 engine 7 tile train??

In case "realistic acceleration" is enabled in game, both trains should get the same acceleration, since F = m * a. In case the short train´s weight is half the weight of the long train.

No fancy math required.

HTH
Michael

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:36 am 
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michael blunck wrote:
ANIKHTOS wrote:
the 3,5 length train with 1 engine will it accelerate as fast at the 2 engine 7 tile train??

In case "realistic acceleration" is enabled in game, both trains should get the same acceleration, since F = m * a. In case the short train´s weight is half the weight of the long train.

No fancy math required.

HTH
Michael



well there is real life and then there is game mechanics

those 2 are not the same

while in real life the answer would be yes they would accelerate the same
the question is how the game handles them

so with realistic acceleration the answer is yes
with not realistic acceleration?


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:36 am 
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acs121 wrote:
Hold on. Which engine are you using, what is it's max speed, power and tractive effort ?
(speed in kph, power in hp and TE in kgf)



the fastest engine available at the time

even my vacuum trains have 2 engines


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 11:50 am 
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ANIKHTOS wrote:
well there is real life and then there is game mechanics

We´re talking about "game mechanics", o/c.

ANIKHTOS wrote:
the question is how the game handles them

so with realistic acceleration the answer is yes
with not realistic acceleration?

Game settings -> Vehicles -> Physics -> Train acceleration model
"The original model penalizes slopes equally for all vehicles."

How this is done in detail, I have no idea. You´d have to run experiments, or might take a look into the code.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:23 pm 
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ANIKHTOS wrote:
acs121 wrote:
Hold on. Which engine are you using, what is it's max speed, power and tractive effort ?
(speed in kph, power in hp and TE in kgf)



the fastest engine available at the time

even my vacuum trains have 2 engines


This doesn't tell me which locomotive you are using. Is it a default vehicle ? Because the SH'40 and even the AsiaStar aren't that good at hauling freight. However, the X2001 and Lev1/2/3s are perfect for freight hauling.
You can also get into the Arctic / Tropical climate. They have much, much more powerful diesels there.
Note that generally if you use any NewGRF vehicle set (2cc TrainsInNML, DB Set XL, etc), there won't be the default vehicles.
I strongly reccomend you the two sets above. Be aware that if 2cc TrainsInNML works in all climates, DB Set XL only works in Temperate. I strongly reccomend the DB Set XL if you're looking for a set with a lot of vehicles but not too complex, because the vehicle list with 2cc Trains is so long that i'd give 100€ to anyone that has managed to use ALL vehicles.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:38 pm 
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acs121 wrote:
ANIKHTOS wrote:
acs121 wrote:
Hold on. Which engine are you using, what is it's max speed, power and tractive effort ?
(speed in kph, power in hp and TE in kgf)



the fastest engine available at the time

even my vacuum trains have 2 engines


This doesn't tell me which locomotive you are using. Is it a default vehicle ? Because the SH'40 and even the AsiaStar aren't that good at hauling freight. However, the X2001 and Lev1/2/3s are perfect for freight hauling.
You can also get into the Arctic / Tropical climate. They have much, much more powerful diesels there.
Note that generally if you use any NewGRF vehicle set (2cc TrainsInNML, DB Set XL, etc), there won't be the default vehicles.
I strongly reccomend you the two sets above. Be aware that if 2cc TrainsInNML works in all climates, DB Set XL only works in Temperate. I strongly reccomend the DB Set XL if you're looking for a set with a lot of vehicles but not too complex, because the vehicle list with 2cc Trains is so long that i'd give 100€ to anyone that has managed to use ALL vehicles.


well i use the default trains
and my question was general
so the engine would not be an isure
even if i use the weak asia star as you say or even the ginu a4

the question is the same
will be the same a 2 engine ginzu 7 tiles train
or 1 engine ginzu a4 3.5 tiles long

both configuration reach the maximum speed
so i was asking from the acceleration point
and also from the point of having
2n small trains versus having N longer ones


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:09 pm 
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ANIKHTOS wrote:
acs121 wrote:
ANIKHTOS wrote:


the fastest engine available at the time

even my vacuum trains have 2 engines


This doesn't tell me which locomotive you are using. Is it a default vehicle ? Because the SH'40 and even the AsiaStar aren't that good at hauling freight. However, the X2001 and Lev1/2/3s are perfect for freight hauling.
You can also get into the Arctic / Tropical climate. They have much, much more powerful diesels there.
Note that generally if you use any NewGRF vehicle set (2cc TrainsInNML, DB Set XL, etc), there won't be the default vehicles.
I strongly reccomend you the two sets above. Be aware that if 2cc TrainsInNML works in all climates, DB Set XL only works in Temperate. I strongly reccomend the DB Set XL if you're looking for a set with a lot of vehicles but not too complex, because the vehicle list with 2cc Trains is so long that i'd give 100€ to anyone that has managed to use ALL vehicles.


well i use the default trains
and my question was general
so the engine would not be an isure
even if i use the weak asia star as you say or even the ginu a4

the question is the same
will be the same a 2 engine ginzu 7 tiles train
or 1 engine ginzu a4 3.5 tiles long

both configuration reach the maximum speed
so i was asking from the acceleration point
and also from the point of having
2n small trains versus having N longer ones


To say, the 3,5 tile train will accelerate faster. If you'd want the 7-tile to accelerate as fast as the 3,5 tile, you would need to put 3 locos.

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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:28 pm 
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With realistic acceleration I think double train will be just a tiny bit faster due to having less air drag. In original should be the same.


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 10:01 pm 
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_dp_ wrote:
With realistic acceleration I think double train will be just a tiny bit faster due to having less air drag. In original should be the same.


7 tile train
42 witht he first monorail engine to go 305km/h needed 42 tiles
47!?!? with the millenium z1 engine to go to 305km/h

the 3.5 tile train with the millenium z1 engine needed 47 tiles for the 305km/h

so the answer is they are the same


but why the millenium z1 behaves worse than the x2001???


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:01 am 
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Image

Both trains started at the same tile, this is them after travelling moreless 50 tiles with the realistic acceleration model


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 6:38 am 
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Just comparing engines (no wagons attached), X2001 has more horsepower per ton than the Millenium Z1 ;)

X2001: 9000hp for 95t = 95hp/t
Z1: 10000hp for 170t = 60hp/t

Horsepower is the primary factor in rate of acceleration, more = better :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:12 am 
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andythenorth wrote:
Horsepower is the primary factor in rate of acceleration, more = better

I´ve already told him (F = m * a), but we could go on forever. Just in case there´s nothing more of interest? Decoupling, anybody?

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 7:26 am 
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michael blunck wrote:
andythenorth wrote:
Horsepower is the primary factor in rate of acceleration, more = better

I´ve already told him (F = m * a), but we could go on forever. Just in case there´s nothing more of interest? Decoupling, anybody?

regards
Michael


good morning Michael
so the second part of the question


would you like 10 train tile 7
or 20 train tile 3.5 for a route??

what is your personal favourite??

long trains or small trains/??


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:13 am 
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ANIKHTOS wrote:
[..] what is your personal favourite??

long trains or small trains/??

IMO, it depends on routing. More trains could be difficult to handle in restricted space. OTOH, too long trains could also be problematic. Then, there´s the problem with loading time, etc.

As already discussed, from a technical POV, it should be irrelevant, as long as train mass and motive power are proportional.

regards
Michael

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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 8:23 am 
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michael blunck wrote:
ANIKHTOS wrote:
[..] what is your personal favourite??

long trains or small trains/??

IMO, it depends on routing. More trains could be difficult to handle in restricted space. OTOH, too long trains could also be problematic. Then, there´s the problem with loading time, etc.

As already discussed, from a technical POV, it should be irrelevant, as long as train mass and motive power are proportional.

regards
Michael


well now we discuss another aspect apart for max speed and accelration

we discuss what people like

long trains or small trains

every solution have prons and cons


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PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:38 am 
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so in a route i split the train into half's and lets it run to see any difference

Length 7 train
Train number 8
Unloading max train 3
Loading max train 4
In use 25% -37% max 50%
Profit 1.202.956


Length 3,5 train
Train number 15
Unloading max train 4
Loading max train 8
In use 33 % -40% max 46%
Profit 1.160.403

the first thing we will notice is that the smaller trains but a more stress into the loading station demanding it to be bigger while in the unloading station there is practical no effect

in the small route
there was 2-3 train on the move with a peak of 4 trains
with the smaller train 5-6 train with a peak of 7 trains

so does anyone have the time the game need to load a train???


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