Switzerland in 1800 - a call for assistance in scenario development

[fridu]

Ladies and Gentlemen

I am still a newbie at openTTD (actually running v1.7 on Debian Buster) but I got hooked in scenario development. I played a bit around with the existing scenarios containing Switzerland but am not entirely happy with them (too small, too simple, and am missing a lot of important locomotives like all BLS engines and the very important 1000mm narrow gauge rails). And then I tumbled over the Tokaido scenario and it became quickly an addicting favorite of myself. Being Swiss, I like the precision and details of that scenario. So why not doing a similar high-quality scenario for Switzerland? That is why I have started to plan in earnest a big scenario of my own country. But as this is quite a bit of work I seek guidance and assistance before loosing myself in some beginner's errors.

What do I have?
- a great heighmap (based on ASTER data) which gives a perfect 4096x2048 map of Switzerland (or a 4096x4096 which then roughly goes from Stuttgart to Genova)
- some 2700 Swiss community names and good geography knowledge and access to precise online maps (NOT Google earth )
- solid knowledge of Swiss trains and transportation. Actually I am building a more or less complete list of Swiss locomotives for being able to choose the right ones for a newGRF "Swiss locomotives" (not just the SBB-CFF-FFS ones)
- practical experience in researching history and already good knowledge of industry history of Switzerland.
- no fear of a console solution. I am not a programmer but manage my private Linux system since Debian Rex - sometimes with bloody fingertips but at least it worked until now...

What do I miss?
- practical experience in GRF programming
- practical experience in pixel image creation
- practical experience in large scenario creation, especially in following the right sequence of steps like having first the vehicles GRF's before starting a scenario map etc.

What is the base idea of the scenario?
- The scenario should present a reasonable and realistic approach to representation of the industrialization of Switzerland in the last 200 years. This means an early start (like the year 1800, when the first Mule Jenny started in St. Gallen) and especially means that the industries should appear in the correct years at more or less the correct place, not randomly.
- The geography has to be correct (mountains, forests, rivers and lakes and hey, how do you build glaciers and barrier lakes?
- The particularity of Switzerland (having nearly no primary resources besides forests and water power) will be shown by having all these industries outside the border (for example in Northern Italy, the Black Forest or the Vosges Mountains)
- The town growth has to be limited over time and (if possible) the rural exodus between 1850 and 1950 should be represented.
- Only Swiss trains would be used (to keep it simple enough - France and Italy have incompatible DC systems and that makes it really complex!)
- So electrification of railways will be restricted to 15kV 162/3Hz AC for standard gauge and "a DC voltage" for narrow gauge (even if these ahev AC too or even three phased voltage like the Jungfraubahn)
- Actually, my favorite is ECS v1.2 with all vectors enabled as it's sufficiently complex and has two important industries for this little country: tourism and valuable transportation.

What am I looking for?
- I think a little brainstorm phase could be helpful. Feel free to share your ideas, even if you do not want to contribute to the project.
- a main topic will be a concise list of newGRF's that should be used (and the reason why they should be used). Reinventing the weel is not useful but there are so many GRF's available that I am a bit lost.
- If you are interested to collaborate: what can you offer in terms of knowledge and time?
- I think a more detailed development plan should be then required. What type of document is used for this (my planning spreadsheets is already very large).

Thanks in advance for any contribution to this thread and see you later

Fridu

[SwissFan91]

I am definitely interested in helping any way I can.

I don't have time to study your post right now but in the mean time let me know how I can help specifically.

[romazoon]

Hi, nice project, i ll follow the development, and if i can, give you some help;

i did in the past some scenarios and made many times somes mistakes, since i don t know how much you experienced that i ll share a few of my experience :

- it s not only the vehicle grf that you need to put into the game even before map creation, its the all newgrf list. Of course that will reduce the modularity of the scenario as changing/adding newgrf is not recommanded after (it may appear fine at the moment, and even for a while but it will break at some point...wich you really don t want to happen on a long play scenario like you intend to do)

- The map size : frankly i ve never seen any game past the size 2048*2048 being smooth to play once you got tons of vehicles, of course you may have a beast of computer but even an i7 3.4 ghz can t handle a game 2048*2048 with the map almost filled up (i talk of experience here, played extensively Cindini scenario; or a France scenario both on 2048*2048, the last count around 2500/3000 trains and probably 2500 rvs, a couple hundred ships with tons of bouey, and probably around a 100 planes....but there is still so much to do on the map, except computer can t really follow.

- time to build the scenario: placing everything by hand is very, very, very time consuming; especially if you try to make it the most accurate possible... unless you use the wonderfull patch that put the towns depending on their coordinates (i think lastly maintained by McZapkie, but i cant remember the name of the patch)

-newgrfs suggestion : buildings -> Swedish House set might look relatively close enough to the architecture you could find in switzerland, it will be missing the famous chalet though. the Polish Building set also has some interesting and nice building. Since you seems ready to make newgrfs, maybe you could use some of their sprites depending on their licenses, and also add, i think it is Swissfan, sprites of typical swiss buildings that were made a while ago along those cute looking ski lift(which are newobjects)
vehicles -> the existing sbb-cff newgrf is a graphical wonder, so why reinventing the wheel as you said ? then you could still make an add on with the locs you feel are missing ; for road vehicles, look at hungarian trucks set, and polish road vehicles they are the most european vehicles you ll find imho; and polish rv set will provide you some early horse carriage ; for ships... no nevermind it s switzerland after all just kidding; i think there is a paddle steamer in Squid ( or maybe in Fish; or Cat eated Fish and Squid, don t know what s the latest on andythenorth side XD ), and there is some river/lake ships; planes : only WAS will give you some planes with swiss liveries .
-> eyecandy, in my eye on such a scenario it is very important to give lot of choice of newobjects to the player, because it s the best way to personalize eachh city : City Objects for the beautifull parks, Australian objects (not swiss themed, but the variety of it is a wonder, and many things are not needed to be swiss themed : it has farms and animals with fences; fake rivers, lakes, etc...), VAST object can be also a good choice for making parks or foot path, ISR/DWE objects and ISR stations, and DWE stations, to have nice industrial areas...

I could go on as there is many good other newgrfs, and newobjects... i just don t know enough what you are looking for to keep adding to the suggestion list; so let s see how this goes

[fridu]

Allright

Some time has passed and I made up my mind on some topics. Thanks for the input - it really helped me go further.

So where are we now?

As far as I understand, the idea of the scenario is to have the GRF's to be chosen before you start developing the details. This means I have to have a concise list of everything I want to use in the scenario (especially NewGRF's). So this means that there is a mandatory sequence in which the tasks have to be processed through:

1. Choose the NewGRF's you want to use
Mostly done, will need a peer review

2. Develop eventually missing parts (in my case mainly engines)
That is the part where I certainly will need help!

3a Define the GRF bundle BEFORE going further in scenario development
3b When done, start with the heightmap.

4a populate heightmap with rivers
4b populate heightmap with towns and cities
4c populate heightmap with industries

5. add the parameters of general gameplay (like money, growth characteristics etc)

QUESTION: I am asking now for feedback if my view of the sequence is correct.
I will cut the questions into several posts

Thanks in advance

Fridu

[fridu]

The troubles with vehicles

The Switzerland scenario should be heavily train oriented - after all, this small country has the densest rail network of the world. So a heavy accent is to be put on a correct representation of available vehicles. But there are some other vehicles missing too...

Road vehicles
- Road transport by horse as available in the "Early vehicle GRF"
- Unknown to most, Switzerland had a flourishing truck manufacturing industry (Martini, Saurer, Berna, FBW). These should be available.
- The postal buses (yellow livery) should be realized too

Ships
- If we want the scenario to start as early as 1800, there is a need for man- or horse-hauled barges on channels and rivers.
- Some sailing ships for fishing and merchandise transport on lakes should be available too (small trawlers)
- The touristic ships on Swiss lakes are an important factor and should go from the steam period (early 1840's) to today.

Aircrafts
- Well, that is not a big topic but for nostalgic reasons it would be nice to have the Swissair fleet in their "original" livery from the 60's to 90's (from Ju-88, DC-3, Caravelle, MD DC 8,9,10, Boeing 737 and 747 as well as the early Airbuses, not to forget the Fokkers and Jumbolinos)

Trains (the main topic)
I am not entirely happy with the existing SBB set (although it is very nicely done!), so there is quite a list of requirements that will follow.
First of all, we have to have 1000mm-gauge trains (similar to the Tokaido scenario) as narrow gauge is important in Switzerland).

Then we have to divide the history of rail transport into several phases.. So a very short overview of the timeline:
a. 1829- 1871 early adaptors could (and had) have built railways mostly based on British technology (Stephensons rocket started in 1829). This period is well covered by the early vehicles GRF
b. 1871 the SLM Winterthur started to build own steam engines of a big variety. I have to cut it down to a practical list of 4-6 locomotives which were mostly used
c. From 1882, the Gotthardbahn had it's own heavy-duty engines (the later period of steam is already in the SBB set)
d. From 1898, electrification started to roll in first early adaptors (EBT, the Emmenthal-Thun-Bahn on standard gauge, in 1906 the Simplon by SBB too, and the rest are mainly 1000mm-gauge mountain railways)
e. in 1913, the BLS started a mainline operation fully electrified (on 15kV 16 2/3 Hz which became the standard for CH, D and A).
f. General electrification started in 1919, and the SBB set has the most important locomotives available. I am missing the very importnat BLS locos too, as they were usually technology precursors and 10-20 years in advance of the SBB!
g. After WWII, there have been several initiatives to streamline the locomotive variety from the governmental side - so these locomotives (like the "vacuum cleaner" Re 4/4 IV) and the high-powered EMU's like the SOB BDe 4/4 (it's Südostbahn, not an English acronym... - I mean in the Ticino we even have a company acronym of FART... yeah, I love these acronyms)

So we come down to a practical list of 4 periods
I. 1829 to 1871 can be represented by a mix of early vehicles (6-10 locomotives as well as early wagons)
II. from 1871 on, the SLM steam engines should be designed (estimated 10-15 engines)
III. from 1898 on, narrow- and standard-gauge electric locomotives and EMU's should be available - a special list of to be realized engines has to be dressed up
IV. after 1960, there are no more steam locomotives (besides nostalgic trains) allowed in Switzerland - so steam should by force disappear from the railway network.

QUESTION: I well know this is really a big task but my impression is that the easiest way is to start from scratch a "Swiss vehicles NewGRF" that could represent all these ideas.
Has anybody experience with that much development? I can well deliver a wish-list with all the important vehicles including all the necessary technical details and images - or I get a good step-by-step instruction how to develop locomotives (on Debian...)

I am really interested in feedback on this - maybe I want too much, but you know Swiss precision - it's all or nothing

Fridu

[Quast65]

Ju-88

Dont you mean the Junkers 52? The 88 is a bomber

The 52 exists as a GRF (with Swiss livery):
https://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/detail ... ils&id=190

[fridu]

Ju-88

Dont you mean the Junkers 52? The 88 is a bomber

The 52 exists as a GRF (with Swiss livery):
https://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/detail ... ils&id=190

*chuckles*

Of course it's the "Tante Ju" which is the Ju-52, not the middle-distance bomber Ju-88

[fridu]

OK, so here is a first list of GRF's

Vehicles NewGRF's
- no "main" GRF selected yet. the list of desired vehicles is the core topic of another post.
- Certainly all existing SBB vehicles of the excellent SBB trainset
- TARS MountainLifts 0.3
- Early vehicles

Industries NewGRF's
- ECS Basic vector II 1.2 R264
- ECS Agricultural vector 1.2 R685
- ECS Chemicals vector II 1.2 R264
- ECS Houses 1.2 R185
- ECS Machinery vector 1.2 R415
- ECS Town vector 1.2 R163
- ECS Wood vector 1.2 R226
- ECSext – additional industries
- ECS Industries addon

Cargo additions
- ECS cargoset for standard TTD vehicles
- Original vehicles cargo set
QUESTION: I think only one of the two above is necessary - which one to choose?


Town GRF's
- Pre-industrial era houses
- Total Town Replacement Set 3.14 Early Mod
- Town and Industry - UK Houses Early Mod
- Swedish Houses Set 1.1.1 EarlyMod
- Early Houses 2.0Beta-r707


Landscape and eye-candy GRF's
- OpenGFX+Landscape 1.1.2
- AuzObjects_BridgesAndEmbankments
- AuzObjects_Farms
- AuzObjects_Fences
- AuzObjects_Landscape
- AuzObjects_LandAndWater
QUESTION: is that all I have to think about when it comes to landscaping?


As usual, all the inputs are highly welcome

Fridu