What is OpenTTD today?

OpenTTD is a fully open-sourced reimplementation of TTD, written in C++, boasting improved gameplay and many new features.

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Transportman
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by Transportman »

I think development will slowly come to an halt, most big changes have been implemented, most small things have been solved. So there is little for beginners to get familiar with the code, while current devs have become busier with other things. That said, I do still expect some features to come, just not in a once per year we get a big feature kind of thing, but more once every few years we get that. And that is fine, the game we have is fun, everything that is added now is nice-to-have.

For people who propose to lower the coding standards to attract more devs. Don't do that. Use one uniform way of doing things, otherwise it will be likely to make it even harder to get new developers later on because the code is a mess, the risks to create more bugs or inefficient executions will also be there. And nobody wants to clean up such mess, so deviations from the standards should be limited to the absolute minimum, and only when there are extremely good reasons to deviate it should be considered.
ic111 wrote:
Alberth wrote: IRC is really a big part of the communication.
Ok, maybe I should start using it. For technical discussions, so far the well-known forum here sounded more senseful to me, as it looks much more like an permanent source of information than a chat.
It's a lot more direct that this forum, it really is chatting. The forum is nice for discussions for which the answers can be provided on a longer timescale, by anyone who reads the topic and has some ideas about it. With chatting you can get a real discussion, allowing you to clarify things on the spot. I also think the response rate on chat will be higher than on a forum, because it is more direct interaction. Both means just complement each other, chat for the first iteration of your idea, the forum for a second iteration where you already worked through some feedback.
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fonso
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by fonso »

Maybe the most prominent patch authors should start some official "experimental" variant of OpenTTD, hosted in a separate repository on github, which they manage themselves. Then all the extra patches could get merged there into one code base. I wouldn't be opposed to have the OpenTTD build farm periodically produce binaries of that, which could then be distributed through openttd.org, clearly marked as "experimental", of course. I would even allow bugs for such an "OpenTTD experimental" to be filed on flyspray. (But regarding the infrastructure questions, I cannot speak for other developers, and as everyone can see, I'm not particularly active lately ...)

This way people who want to play those patches will have an easier time procuring binaries, the authors would get more bug reports, they would be incentivized to collaborate among each other and find their own consensus on how to manage the quality vs. new features dilemma. The lessons learned that way would be a benefit to everyone and chances are that some of the extra features would eventually mature into a "ready for trunk" state this way. Also, in such a setup new patch authors will have an easier time proving their "worthiness" to the "developers".

Mind that this idea is not that exotic. Many software projects have separate stable and experimental versions.
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ino
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by ino »

fonso wrote:Maybe the most prominent patch authors should start some official "experimental" variant of OpenTTD, hosted in a separate repository on github, which they manage themselves.
AFAIK, JGR's Patch Pack and Joker's Patch Pack are already on GitHub, probably many more. JGR also releases Windows binary on GitHub, and Linux binary should be trivial for anyone using Linux anyway.

JGR's repository is very clean and organised IMO, with separated branch for all features. Joker's seems to be rebased constantly over SVN trunk though, and when I was digging through the blames I almost always end up in a single big commit containing all changes to that point.

To me, this is a big different. I have recently submitted a patch (in form of git branch) to be included in JGR's already and was accepted. While I know how to use SVN, I haven't touched it for over 6 years and I have no real wish to use it again. I wouldn't bother to submit a patch to core OpenTTD myself; probably would just kept it private if JGR's does not exist. (Maybe I wouldn't even start considering writing a patch)

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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by SimYouLater »

kamnet wrote:I'll be honest, that old thread over there is absolutely meaningless. It was the culmination of what was really nothing more than a couple of tiffs nearly a decade ago. The "bullies", as they were termed, was nothing more than people who held some strong opinions. Those people either settled their issues or decided to go away. It's old drama.

In my opinion, OpenTTD wasn't gutted. Yes, many people who got started are no longer involved. That happens in many enthusiast communities. But we have new people coming in all the time, and OpenTTD's popularity hasn't waned. The game itself continues to slowly evolve with features, new sprite artists come along and have put a considerable amount of time into creating new wonders to feast your eyes upon, and the amount of coding and programming that's been developed has pushed this game far beyond its original boundaries.

I've been following OpenTTD since version 0.6.0 was published, and before that I was somewhat cognizant of TTDPatch. Never once have I ever thought to myself, "This is it - OpenTTD is facing its demise!" Just the opposite. What IS unfortunate is that a lot of other OpenTTD communities have not been sustainable. Simuscape, TTD Russia, TT-MS and Tycoonez have all either seen significant declines or disappeared altogether. But then you have /r/openttd and TELK which have emerged and you're seeing new influxes of players and developers. There's no shortage of OpenTTD "lets play" and tutorial videos on YouTube, Twitch and other video networks.
Well, thank you for convincing me not to give up, at least. I posted a brief reply he day after making this topic without seeing your reply, then deleted it when I did and went to bed (up far too late). When I came back the next day, I couldn't find this topic in the forum I posted it in and it wasn't in my recent posts or even a search, so I assumed it was deleted because it was a stupid thing to ask. I basically found this again by accident when I did a search for the Modern Maglevs topic.

So I'll reply to a bunch of stuff... Too much to quote all of it, unfortunately. Too much to even organize. I will be writing all my replies here as I go through everything. I will use @"username" to say who I am talking to and reply in chronological order, and put this in list format with no cascading entries. This means that the early entries on this list of replies will be contradicted by later entries.
  1. @andythenorth: This is exactly why I asked the question, because it seems to be not as active as it first seemed or as inactive as it was while reading that topic on "the other forum".
  2. @Redirect Left: It's why I had doubts after making FicTown Names. i probably should have listened to that voice inside and asked then, but I didn't know enough.
  3. @JGR: Reading what you have to say, maybe not, considering how well your patch handles things.
  4. @Redirect Left: That's a problem then from the top down. There's only so much that can be done with static code.
  5. @NekoMaster: Yeah, it feels to me like that's a big issue that patches are being given bars to high to jump over.
  6. @Pyoro: Only if that doesn't halt what can be done with easy-to-learn NML/PNG NewGRFs. NFO is IMPOSSIBLE to code in for most people. I can at least read NML, but pure hex code? That can't even be documented for later changes! Between 2010 and 2014, there was definitely less changes if the claims made by Simuscape were true. However, I've at least taken a quick peak at the general rate of new stuff (everything, basically, NewGRFs all the way up to Trunk), it looks way more sparse after Tracktypes, Townsets and NewObjects became full features. After them, there was little to add that wasn't huge.
  7. @Alberth: Unfortunately, it looks like this is what the community used to thrive on, that OpenTTD was the best out there, even more than Simutrans (Their unavoidable 90-degree turns at stations might not be an issue but if tile A1 has "/" and tile B1 has "/_\" it looks horrible to an OpenTTD player, and a lot of their paks have stations which overlay onto the tracks themselves at the ends of the Platform. Said packs are mutually exclusive.), so if you made stuff and they made stuff, everybody wins and there's a snowball effect. That snowball is gone now.
  8. @"V453000 :)": (Hard to put your name with the format I'm using) I don't have the motivation you have. I just wanted something where I could actually do some customization myself. NML is the second programming language I ever learned and the one I know the most about. The only other I know is HTML, due to trying and failing to learn it in a High School class. I'm not a programmer, or an artist. I'm a fairly good writer, but I only know one language so I can't do translations. What I saw that appealed to me here was the ghost of this game's past, not the present I fooled myself into seeing.
  9. Toffo: Finally someone gets it! Why do you think I called this topic "What is OpenTTD today?" if the part about the Simuscape topic and the apparent bullies wasn't mostly rhetorical? I don't to need to know more about what happened then, I need to know what has happened since! What you've pointed out with trunk is why this list contradicts itself already and probably will continue as my opinion is shaped.
  10. @andythenorth: I was wondering the same thing...
  11. @pelya: ...until... (skip Pyoro, Redirect Left, andythenorth, Redirect Left again and Toffo for the conclusion; it changed a lot for me)
  12. @Pyoro: Then what is "trunk-ready"?
  13. @Redirect Left: That's why I don't even bother with Trunk anymore. It seems like nothing is happening, and i can't find out of nothing is.
  14. @andythenorth: ...
  15. @Redirect Left: It would be nice to at least see enthusiasm. If that's not possible to muster up, something is usually going very wrong (but overenthusiasm is equally telling of problems behind the scenes, especially with nothing to show for it).
  16. @Toffo: It does feel dismissive. You do at least say "we'll get to that". If you can't then stay quiet and at least cover your ***es legally, but that's mostly not an issue here. Nobody should outright dismiss a flaw in their own creation methods.
  17. @Alberth: No wonder?! When you come out and say that you're the only developer left, then YES it's no wonder. I have seen that NOWHERE before this point. I've used the reddit, but I don't use the chat because I never need it or find it useful. I need to be able to ask questions now but still come back to them when I have time, and a chat is not conductive to that. Sounds like a lot of people here, doesn't it? As for patches, if they really need rewriting that badly... i think I do have an answer, but nobody will like it.
  18. Clarification of said answer. Step 1, halt trunk/nightly development. Step 2, line up NotRoadTypes, the modular Airports and the modular Seaports, in that order, to be finished and put directly into JGR's patch pack to tide everyone over; you finish these patches as good as is reasonable ahead of schedule, but don't release them until a major feature is completed in... Step 3, OpenTTD 2 or "OpenTTD-R (Recoded)" begins immediately. You take any and all TTDPatch and TTDCode that is relevant, the New Map Features, the most-liked OpenTTD Patch Pack patches and NotRoadTypes, organize the documentation of everything that is documented, reverse-engineer everything else, and reprogram OpenTTD from scratch using easily expandable code - I'm talking no code limits on ANYTHING unless not having them is impossible. Unlimited map sized except for RAM and processors. Unlimited vehicles. Unlimited stations, codeable in NML. Unlimited cargos and industries. Unlimited town sets. Unlimited tracktypes, roadtypes, tramtypes and "xtypes" in general. Unlimited modular airport pieces and unlimited pre-made airports. You get the picture. Plan all of it out for maximum potential of additions. Ensure it's backwards compatible with all NewGRFs currently fully working. Make it happen, then test it. Then release it as the NEW OpenTTD which no longer has these issues bogging it down. That's not a demand, it's the only advice I can give to see this working. Before all of the above even starts you'll need programmers... The plan I came up with is due to an odd intuition with pipelines that I don't deal with. I don't think it doesn't need to be modified to be more realistic, it probably does. What it cannot have is changes that simplify it by taking away features. It will need everything it cannot match the current code in immediately to be expandable so that it eventually can. But...
  19. Reasons why the above is the only general way to fix this and why I think it probably will not happen? We have 1 programmer. We have one patch pack which everyone generally agrees is better than the original patches it implemented. We have one fork for generally-needed features that is well-maintained. We have one major project that is (or recently was) full-steam ahead. that's 3 major programmers, 2 if you exclude Alberth (or who he was referring to if not himself) plus the guys working on NRT. that's less than what OpenTTD first had, and the code needs to be documented before you can begin.
  20. Reason we lost those programmers? You're right that they left for their own reasons. You're wrong as to why that's an issue. Let's say they were year 1 of university and none were getting doctorates. Let's say that was 2004~. In 2008, they would have started prioritizing life over OpenTTD, but some might get doctorates or stay with their parents during the recession or whatever. So let's give them another 6 years. When did the thing that Simuscape topic complained about happened? 2014. The bullies aren't relevant anymore, they're gone. They were relevant then though, so people who could have replaced the devs didn't and don't exist. You can adjust he time a bit, I don't feel like checking specific dates, but it can still apply. The only thing that matters now is that we have nobody to remake this project better to save it, and doing so is the only way to do so unless you have a better idea than your own admission that the code needs an overhaul.
  21. @Yisc: It at least was a good answer. Cleared up a lot of stuff.
  22. @michael blunck: Which is why I seriously am disappointed, Michael. "The developers" didn't have inappropriate behavior because there ARE no developers. There obviously hasn't been any except 1 or 2 people for several years. We will (needless over-specific information sent only via PMs removed) need to get get very lucky; so much that lightning strikes twice. That's unlikely, but if OpenTTD has any chance of continuing, someone with your good reputation and pull saying that people who are gone now ruined this project and it deserves to "stay static" - or whatever you were implying - will remove even that slim chance. It's not hopeless yet, just a lot of work with nobody to do it, which can only have any chance of someone deciding to take up that task if people who have been here a long time are willing to fight to the bitter end to at least try and save this thing. We have little chance of succeeding as it is, we don't need people who should know better saying we have no chance.
  23. @Alberth: ...sarcasm isn't going to get through to him if he's that bitter.
  24. @ino: That is why this project is a dead man walking. There's no programmers to do it, plain and simple, save the handful still here who know a bit about it. If Alberth can't do it, it's up to New Map Features, NotRoadTypes and the Patch Pack/Patch makers. If they can't do it, and nobody comes out of nowhere to save OpenTTD with something new the way OpenTTD replaced an increasingly hack-y TTDPatch (according to people who were there) then it's only a matter of time before this entire community dies.
  25. @michael blunck: Your projects are going to die if you kill OpenTTD. Help save it, or start learning complex 3D modelling that makes the 32bpp graphics look like Railroad Tycoon 1 because if OpenTTD dies then THIS will be the only future OpenTTD will have and THIS is already much of our present.
  26. @Toffo: That's enough unknowledge-able plans and angry ranting for now, yeah. Moving on...
  27. @andythenorth: Look, I respect you too, andy. You've been a big help with my attempts at projects here but, well...if you aren't andythenorth don't click the links in this list entry (removed via fake links in public post) ...what is "wonderful" here is that you have just as much trouble recognising the truth when it gets placed right in front of you as michael (needless over-specific information sent only via PMs removed). Those links pertain to only your past and are relevant to only you in both past and present, the only reason I felt need to link them. Both of you, you are missing the point. This game is going to die, and if it is going to have even a small chance of being saved, recognise that the only person on that list of bullies still around is "V453000 :)" and these days they aren't causing problems, but both of you are. You're not going to help save this community? You're not going to leave either? Then I am. Reply and apologise to each other and everyone soon, or this will be my last post here and I will be reporting both of you. At least I've got the decency to ensure that if/when I do leave I won't sabotage my own work to spite the parts of the community that didn't hurt me like your -ing "tragic license hero" Oztranz. (Note: I know he's not a hero to you, I'm pointing out how much you're acting like him and that in an environment where licenses are sacred cows, that will lead to everyone losing access to your work because of a select few. Do not take a privilege from people in general because of a few *******s, at the very least you will lose all respect from me, at most you might destroy this community considering how important the two of you are to it.) I'll even leave the existing source for the towns I'll never end up publishing in FicTown+ Names before taking off. Later Edit: Tbh, michael's self-explanation brings up a good point without specifically pointing out which urls they're at. i'll just scrub the urls from here and PM them to you to drive home the point.
  28. Now I'm done.
  29. @ic111: If this is true, it at least gives one point to Michael in that the now-gone devs were idiots who thought they knew best, and their laziness doomed their own work. 100% agree with "There are no small problems left, you can't just stop adding features to an Open Source project because the hard ones are hard." You've also come up with the first solution that was better and simpler than my complex plan in what I've read so far. Congrats!
  30. @michael blunck: This post adds nothing (save for explaining motives better than andy's accusations), I will be ignoring you until I see one by you that does.
  31. @andythenorth: This post adds nothing (save for asking the question better directed towards Alberth), I will be ignoring you until I see one by you that does.
  32. @Simons Mith: That's the issue. This used to be a centralised project. like GIMP or Audacity or OpenOffice. GIMP and Audacity are still going strong, and LibreOffice is most definitely the universally-agreed continuation of OpenOffice. This isn't what we have now. What we have is why Linux is bull****: Because people are more concerned about getting their way with the project and having what they want than creating a cohesive and open source OS that is a suitable replacement for Windows and Mac OS X. Having ALL the things EVERYONE wants is okay. Having the things you want because we're fighting over the same limited slots is what doomed Linux to near-irrelevance. We are already near-irrelevant. There is a game already out that does OpenTTD as well as OpenTTD itself does but in true 3D without grid restrictions, with both a Steam Workshop AND a fansite which has it's own mods. There is a game being made that uses a Civ V-esque "gather resources and spend them wisely" to take OpenTTD, make it 3D while keeping the grid interface, and do so in a way that is more than just a graphical/interface update. We can't afford to be split on this any longer. JGR may be the most-liked option, but what we really need is for OpenTTDNext to be programmed from scratch to account for ALL patches, to have no limits except the PC hardware. Gathering around JGR's Patch Pack is just a stop-gap against boredom if we go with the plan I thought up, to keep people playing until the project is renewed. In your plan, this project becomes totally irrelevant. If not from no central developers, then when computers powerful enough to play "Transport Fever" on max settings with tons of mods become commonplace. That will happen. Moore's Law might get toned down if we reach limits for chips but it won't stop advancing completely unless mankind stops entirely.
  33. @ino: See above. OpenTTDNext will not happen if the forks are competing with each other. OpenTTD can become obsolete. The replacements are already out there. It's just a matter of future hardware or, for Mashinky, development time.
  34. @Wolf01: You pretty much hit the nail on the head. The one thing that's a bit of a wrinkle is that OpenTTD does have (almost) everything I want, which make me biased. I can give you my world I wouldn't go batshit insane if it didn't, but considering the behavior of many people here when you pull back some curtains they usually keep closed that is understandably hard for anyone to take on faith alone.
  35. @michael blunck: *checks* No, I don't think you did. Good point. However...
  36. @Wolf01: Michael, calling them assholes or idiots who can't do their job is at least as bad as calling them selfish control freaks.
  37. @ic111: More humble than me, that's for sure.
  38. @michael blunck: This post adds nothing, I will continue ignoring you until I see one by you that does.
  39. @Redirect Left: Aside from NewGRFs, I agree. AIs can be rewritten, as can game scripts and everything else that uses code necessitating their GPL v2 status. Unfortunately, a lot of code is not GPL v2, a lot of it isn't even allowed to be edited. We already lost all Canadian-specific NewGRFs. The US Set is years out of date IIRC. Considering that permission is needed from Pikkabird to modify their stuff, and that BR-Whatever has failed so many times that it's not worth pursuing compared to this, and that the current BROS relies on existing handling of NML code... oh, and that the game's original vehicles are from the UK with a few foreign vehicles thrown in... It would be a very bad idea to lose compatibility with all existing NewGRFs, resulting in a likely unrecoverable loss of the only working UK and generic North American train sets.
  40. @Wolf01: That's what is so aggrivating about this. Look, I'll admit I'm childish in person a lot of the time. I know when you at least need wisdom and/or stability. Andy? Michael? You two aren't just acting childish. You are acting like those spoiled little ****s that scream at you when you beat them in an online game. The only reason you're not as annoying is because we don't hear you and you use proper capitalisation and punctuation to hide it. Right now it's not hiding it very well.
  41. @Redirect Left: At this point, I think having backwards compatibility to TTDX with the first few versions of the hypothetical "OpenTTDNext", along with compatibility with the last few TTDPatch versions, the most recent trunk, most recent nightlies, most recent New Map Features and the Patch Packs (having NotRoadTypes from the beginning is implied). Going back further than those respective cases is redundant, as those seem like the ones most likely to want to be converted.
  42. @JGR: You bring up a good point about OpenTTDNext/v2/whatever being a potential disaster. If code refactoring is a better option, then simply refurbishing OpenTTD entirely could do it. As for your disagreement with Redirect Left, is compatibility with the most likely direct imports a good compromise? If development of standard OpenTTD trunk and nightlies is halted now, then we reduce that problem to a few majority cases. Original game? Easy. Latest TTDPatch? Would likely cover all versions. The last trunk? Also easy, and it's compatible with all those previous versions due to the effort in keeping the compatibility. NRT should be adapted into the new "main version" right off the bat, and include compatibility with the latest NRT fork version or at least reimplement that specific feature better (I went overboard with suggesting features, but practically infinite roadtypes and tramtypes as well as more efficient code were the official plan for a rewrite, last I heard.) that just leaves the quite rare =33&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search]patch packs which you would want to exclude most of anyway.
  43. @Wolf01: Nothing more for me to say, really.
  44. @ic111: Very little I can say here without repeating myself to make it clear.
  45. @Darkvater: Tbh, I've already covered your one post with the above.
  46. @Dave: 2005? Green username? Why haven't I seen you before? You bring up, unfortunately, a very somber point. OpenTTD is just a maintenance project with some extremely bloated extra scope, if my bad suggestions for NRT are anything to go by. Transport Fever is essentially a modernised version, and Mahinky is what TV Tropes calls a "Reconstruction"; taking the one system that didn't work that well in basic TTD and modifying it into something unexpected that does
  47. @_dp_: Others compared the openTTD compatibility to what is needed in Wondows. You are right in that even Windows 10 has practically ZERO compatibility with... *checks internet* Windows 1.0, likely even 3.1...
  48. @everyone?: Past this point, you suddenly get into heavy technical discussion, which I can tell is being done right but the actual meanings of much of it is beyond me. I know what fork means and how you're applying a lot of normal words, while avoiding the technical ones by talking about the subject matter vaguely, but for me it's making it slightly worse because then I can't even look up the words to try and understand.
  49. @Ailure: I was surprised doing research on it too at first. I thought OpenTTD had been around since the 90's when I saw how far back things went, then as I started reading threads from that period I noticed a distinct lack of mention yet there was mention of "TTDPatch". So I looked up when "the name changed" only to find that OpenTTD came after NewGRFs and something called TTDPatch was common. After investigating a bit to find out if I was missing out on anything, I began realising how deep the history runs here. TTDPatch was important, the way that a CD drive was important. Obsolete, etc. but couldn't have gotten here without it. I also found it strange that a few posts with the words "OpenTTD" predate the topic introducing it, but dismissed it as some quirk of something since the topic looked official and surprising at the time. Which is why I say "lightning striking twice", because as I looked into it a bit more I found archives of "Transport Unlimited". What was it? An attempt to build OpenTTD, by reverse-engineering the code, through the efforts of many people. It failed, floundering for years. People joked about Transport Unlimited like it was Half-Life 3 (or, more appropriate for the time, Duke Nukem Forever). Then out of nowhere, one guy who wrote an emulator for some old Point-and-Click adventure games, said "Here, it's done, you can do what you like because it's Open Source." and from there it exploded. Several people tried to do the job together and couldn't. This one guy cared enough to do it mostly alone. You think that's going to happen again? Right now the best hope is to salvage it somehow, because this time nobody else cares. It's this community's job to handle it, if we can. And tbh, I can only come up with plans that may or may not work because I don't know the hard parts that have to be dealt with. Forget any past recommendations by me if they're as worthless as they feel right now, I really have nothing I can help with. All I know is that either this community will crawl back from the dead, or it will slowly fade and newer games that do the same thing will replace it. I hope that you guys can save it, I'll leave all my files to you to ensure the projects I started in any capacity won't die, but even though it's no longer due to doubt, I think this is where I get off, at least for a while. I might check in occasionally, but I have a feeling that this topic won't change the minds of anyone important who isn't already trying to save it in some way...
  50. @michael blunck, @andythenorth: I'm sorry you two fought over this whole thing. Just please remember I'm not the first or the only one who called you out on the needless arguing, and that you two are at least experienced and still relevant. andy, you've got the keys to the true source code of the most useful and well-drawn GPL v2 sets out there. Even though it's supposed to be usable without you, most are unwilling to ask or unable to understand how to put the pnml files together right. Without you that code is a lot deader than it's license suggests. Michael, I really mean it that you've done the most detail-oriented NewGRFs out there, and even with this I don't think you'd leave. You already would have since you clearly think it's already doomed yet you continue. I hope that this will convince you two to help save what I can't help save in any meaningful capacity, for everyone who still values this project.

    EDIT to answer remaining posts...
  51. @pelya: Simutrans is in even worse shape than OpenTTD from what I've seen. The Steam version won't run on my computer (which is a beefy gaming rig, for the sake of technical discussion) and the way it handles both rails and general graphics feels unsatisfying to anyone who plays OpenTTD with a lot of use signals. If you like the "mega-rail-networks that ships massive amounts of cargo ultra-efficiently which I ensured with just my hands at the mouse and keyboard and my mind planning it well" it is completely unsatisfactory. If you play in a way that involves realistic and functional yet beautiful networks, it feels cheap and clunky. If you play specifically for making things pretty rather than for signals, Simutrans is not really aimed at customizable landscapes either. It excels at one thing only, highly flexible gameplay.
  52. @ic111: If feedback on actual usage is more important early on, while the code's quality is important later, then adjustments need to be made.
  53. @andythenorth: A useful post. Unignoring you now.
  54. @ic111: Can't really comment, too code-related.
  55. @Alberth: "IRC is really a big part of the communication." If it is, that should be made more clear. I'm inclined to ignore it, I imagine many are. Make it clear on the forums to people that the IRC should not be ignored, and the public will either understand you or have nobody but themselves to blame.
  56. @pelya: It at least is simple for me to understand you know what needs to be done in the short term and are heavily involved in the android version/touchscreen version. I'm of the opinion that you should be considered for (one of) the first new devs.
  57. @ic111, @everyone: Have you considered an embedded Discord app? It's applied in HTML code, keeps records and has a search function, enabling far better conversing than standard IRC if you aren't comfortable with unrecorded conversations losing important info. It also doesn't exclude retaining the existing IRC.
  58. @andythenorth: Too technical for me to reply properly?
  59. @Transportman: A good reason to have a new chat with records that doesn't remove the existing IRC, then.
  60. @fonso: That sounds like it should have been done sometime ago. It would definitely be more useful than competing patch packs.
  61. @ino: Well, last post. Divided projects happened because there was no alternative. I don't know much about actual coding, but I can picture what happens socially to a degree. An experimental branch would standardise the patch submission process while enabling Patch Pack-like scope. If there's any flaws, they're beyond my knowledge to spot, so someone really should comment if there is.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.

Toffo
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by Toffo »

Alberth, thanks for taking the time to reply, and sorry I missed it.
Alberth wrote:
Toffo wrote:Well that's it, isn't it? Life gets busy, people get busy. So if the devs are too busy to review patches, or have standards that are so high that no patch contributor can or will meet them, eventually the current crop of devs get will too busy with life and the new crop of devs don't get accepted. No one gets to contribute, the project dies, and those in charge at the time will have overseen that death.
The standards are what they are, because we believe it's the best approach. You are free to disagree. At some point this becomes a difference in project direction, and a reason to fork, eg like Cirdan has done.
Forking is always possible. You don't have to wait until OpenTTD is dead, devs are not in control like you sketch it.

If you want to have the current devs aboard, then yes, you will have to convince us, but it's not required to continue the project.
The standards might be the best approach for the maintainability of the code, but are they the best approach for the health of the project? I can't answer that.

And true, forking is possible, but for me a fork is no longer OpenTTD, it's something else. The devs are not in control of OpenTTD's code, but they ARE in control of OpenTTD. Let's not end up with 20 different OpenTTD distros :D

Alberth wrote:
Toffo wrote:My personal view is also the "build first, refine later" view - but granted, this view of mine has never been applied to software development. OpenTTD is already refined though
Not by a long shot. Do the "start new game" and "autorenew vs autoreplace" exercises I suggested. There is a lot more unrefined crap below the hood which is much more challenging to get right. Most of my commits is refactoring, ever since I became dev, and there is still plenty. Consider yourself invited to experience consequences of your view in reality.
I can imagine that "build first, refine later" might not turn out well for anything but a small software development project. I've seen it work in other fields. I'll trust your experience when you say it doesn't work for software!

Alberth wrote:
Toffo wrote:By all measures, OpenTTD is a remarkable project. But I think we're at a turning point where for OpenTTD to remain remarkable and to stand the test of time, things need to change at a fairly fundamental level, and big decisions need to be made. These decisions, or lack thereof, will rest on the shoulders of the few.
This is a false assumption as I said, you don't have to wait and do nothing.
If people take action, they are taking action on OpenTTD's code, not on OpenTTD. I am referring to OpenTTD as it currently stands as a project.
Alberth wrote:There is a second reason I think. You can't expect devs to fundamentally change in how they do things, just like we can't force patch writers to only provide patches that we completely agree with. If you want to change the direction of the project, you must either convince devs to change opinion (which is going to be very very hard, as they are grounded on technical foundations and experience of the last 10 years), you must become a dev yourself (fight the system from within :p ), or you must fork and take over as the main OpenTTD version.

At least, I see no other way, or did I miss something?

EDIT: Oh, and "fork" is not the solution I think, it's the start of the same problems, but for the person(s) forking.
Agreed, and I don't expect anything. OpenTTD is a spare-time and free project, and no one owes anyone anything. And no, you very rarely miss anything, and you haven't missed anything now. And I agree that forking is not the answer. I think we agree on the options, which I also covered in an earlier post, amended for clarity:
Toffo wrote:So for the project to thrive, I see three options.
1. The current crop of devs can put more work into OpenTTD. As someone who is 10 years older today than he was 10 years ago ( :mrgreen: ), I can attest that isn't a reasonable ask. Life happens, families grow.
2. Let new people in. Yes, that will mean a changing of standards, and it might mean learning to get along with those who might have a different viewpoint. Things might be rough for a while until a new status quo with this expanded group of devs, well, develops.
3. A third option, of course, is to fork.
If we do nothing, OpenTTD ("trunk") most likely dies. To me, as an observer, option 2 looks best for the health of the project.

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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by Transportman »

SimYouLater wrote: [*] @Transportman: A good reason to have a new chat with records that doesn't remove the existing IRC, then.
The #openttd channel is logged, as are several other public channels (logs are here. And I think that channel would be the channel to discuss development ideas and stuff.
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by SimYouLater »

Transportman wrote:
SimYouLater wrote: [*] @Transportman: A good reason to have a new chat with records that doesn't remove the existing IRC, then.
The #openttd channel is logged, as are several other public channels (logs are here. And I think that channel would be the channel to discuss development ideas and stuff.
I noticed when I tried it last night. I'd edit that out with a strikethrough if I could since you've kindly pointed out it is uncomfortably inaccurate.

EDIT: ...I've noticed michael blunck hasn't posted since before I sent a message to him and andythenorth. I sent a second message that I was just pointing out they needed to stop fighting, but neither of them have replied, and while andy posted just yesterday... Did I accidentally drive him away?! I really hope neither this topic nor my message has led to him leaving.
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Re: What is OpenTTD today?

Post by Dave »

One shouldn't speak for another human, but I'd posit that Andy has rather thicker skin than all that.

I think I'm going to close this now; SYL got the responses he desired and has crafted his own response, and various back and forths have been resolved. I'm not sure much else could be taken from such a topic without it descending into a scrap, and I can't be bothered to drag people apart - it's summer and I'm sweating.

Any objections, please contact one of the mod team.
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