railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

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Sylf
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Sylf »

1. Go to Warnway Waypoint
2. Go to Next Station
3. Go to Station

Optionally

0. If reliability is greater than 80, skip to order 2 (or any other conditional order you like to use)

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Sylf wrote:1. Go to Warnway Waypoint
2. Go to Next Station
3. Go to Station

Optionally

0. If reliability is greater than 80, skip to order 2 (or any other conditional order you like to use)
That might works, thank you for your idea, I ll try it.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Sylf wrote:1. Go to Warnway Waypoint
2. Go to Next Station
3. Go to Station

Optionally

0. If reliability is greater than 80, skip to order 2 (or any other conditional order you like to use)
I tested it, and found the problem is still there.
the train choose go via waypoint when it want to service, but before it get to the waypoint, the order changed to service in depot. so after service, the train's order is still go via waypoint.
Untitled-1 copy.jpg
(228.27 KiB) Not downloaded yet
Untitled-2 copy.jpg
(236.89 KiB) Not downloaded yet
but, I think I have just found a perfect solution when doing the test.
that is using order - go to nearest depot.
Untitled-3 copy.png
(279.61 KiB) Not downloaded yet

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

Oh, yes. I forgot to point that.

As I said before, when the time for servicing comes, the train will wait for next "Go to depot" order in the list, no matters else. So placing "Service at X depot" (for a single depot) or "Service to nearest depot" (for multiple depots) just after stations/waypoints will make the train wait to the given order and will not skip intermediate orders.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

HGus wrote:Oh, yes. I forgot to point that.

As I said before, when the time for servicing comes, the train will wait for next "Go to depot" order in the list, no matters else. So placing "Service at X depot" (for a single depot) or "Service to nearest depot" (for multiple depots) just after stations/waypoints will make the train wait to the given order and will not skip intermediate orders.
Thanks!
Is there any other experience you like to share with layout under breakdowns? really appreciate

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

What are you struggling with? Don't know if I have an answer, but it'd be interesting to discuss
Being a retired OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:What are you struggling with? Don't know if I have an answer, but it'd be interesting to discuss
I m struggling with the impact from breakdowns.
a very simple example is,
if one train breakdown, all trains behind it will be jammed.
it is not a big problem when there are few trains running on this line.
but if it is a main line with heavy traffic, things will be much different. the probability of breakdown on the line will increase dramatically. any breakdown will jam many trains. and they have to wait and loss reliability, that make them breakdown more easily.
if there is only one train running on the main line, and it spend one month to travel from one station to another. then if there are 20 trains running on this main line, the time may increase to 3 month. that is the big difference.

breakdown on mainline, on station, serve in depot, orders, all of these needs very careful design. even the layout of whole structure. It is very like to bring impact unexpected. It is much more complicate than no breakdowns, but I like it, cause I treat it as a natural character of this game. I play this game since transport tycoon deluxe.
I have done many things and design to lower the impact, but think it is still not enough or not good or not graceful. So I like to see if anyone of your guys has good experience on that and like to share.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

accipiter2000 wrote:I m struggling with the impact from breakdowns.
a very simple example is,
if one train breakdown, all trains behind it will be jammed.
it is not a big problem when there are few trains running on this line.
but if it is a main line with heavy traffic, things will be much different. the probability of breakdown on the line will increase dramatically. any breakdown will jam many trains. and they have to wait and loss reliability, that make them breakdown more easily.
Indeed, minimizing impact of breakdowns is the main goal.
I have come to think you can't have a densely packed mainline if you have breakdowns. As you say, it will cause a cascade of breakdowns, and the entire line crawls to a halt. It makes sense, breakdowns cause havoc on nearby trains, so you must avoid having many trains in close proximity of each other. Dense main lines on the other hand, aim for exactly that, having a heap of trains on a very small set of tracks.

This naturally leads to a more distributed network, instead of the one big-backbone approach that you can do if trains behave less randomly.

This is why I make several parallel but independent lines next to each other if I need transport capacity on a connection. Each line is not that busy, but as there are several lines, you still have enough capacity. I somewhat have the guide-line that one train may get blocked due to a broken-down train in front of it. If there are more, it's time to consider adding another line.
The main way to avoid problems is of course to only run trains that have high reliability. Keep an eye on the statistics of the engines that you use. Also check trains actually running at your tracks. If their statistics are too low, you may need to provide better service to them.
accipiter2000 wrote:breakdown on mainline, on station, serve in depot, orders, all of these needs very careful design. even the layout of whole structure. It is very like to bring impact unexpected. It is much more complicate than no breakdowns, but I like it, cause I treat it as a natural character of this game. I play this game since transport tycoon deluxe.
I have done many things and design to lower the impact, but think it is still not enough or not good or not graceful. So I like to see if anyone of your guys has good experience on that and like to share.
The number of players here that have breakdowns enabled in play is very small, I know less than 5, including you. (However, I don't play that much, so there may be more players.)
Being a retired OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

lol, I play always with breakdowns...

To minimize the breakdowns in mainline, you can build a priority layout with a depot. Send the train to mandatory servicing in that depot and it will enter the mainline at maximum reliability. The priority will ensure that the slower train going out of the depot will not impact the mainline too much.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:Indeed, minimizing impact of breakdowns is the main goal.
I have come to think you can't have a densely packed mainline if you have breakdowns. As you say, it will cause a cascade of breakdowns, and the entire line crawls to a halt. It makes sense, breakdowns cause havoc on nearby trains, so you must avoid having many trains in close proximity of each other. Dense main lines on the other hand, aim for exactly that, having a heap of trains on a very small set of tracks.

This naturally leads to a more distributed network, instead of the one big-backbone approach that you can do if trains behave less randomly.

This is why I make several parallel but independent lines next to each other if I need transport capacity on a connection. Each line is not that busy, but as there are several lines, you still have enough capacity. I somewhat have the guide-line that one train may get blocked due to a broken-down train in front of it. If there are more, it's time to consider adding another line.
The main way to avoid problems is of course to only run trains that have high reliability. Keep an eye on the statistics of the engines that you use. Also check trains actually running at your tracks. If their statistics are too low, you may need to provide better service to them.

The number of players here that have breakdowns enabled in play is very small, I know less than 5, including you. (However, I don't play that much, so there may be more players.)
Thank you Alberth. thanks for understanding and sharing.
actually I have got two very good idea from your guys in this thread - double depot and go to nearest depot, and that make my layout much more graceful. I m very happy with that. :)

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

Look at the end of this page for prioritized depots: https://wiki.openttd.org/Building_depot ... igurations

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

HGus wrote:Look at the end of this page for prioritized depots: https://wiki.openttd.org/Building_depot ... igurations
Interesting and strange design. not sure about how many improvement it may provide.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Now what I m think about is if I can put depot at end of station.

As we know, station has more lines, trains density in each line is lowest in station. their speed is lowest, and they spend lots of time unloading here. so it would be the best place to service.
Build depot for each station line would make the service no impact to others.
Untitled-5.png
Untitled-5.png (195.25 KiB) Viewed 1108 times
if the train depot is double-way like ship depot, the picture shows above would be a perfect solution. there are almost no impact to other trains when servicing in depot.
however train depot is not double-way, so I don't have enough space to do this.
Untitled-6.png
Untitled-6.png (410.42 KiB) Viewed 1108 times
What I am doing now is show in the picture above. but it seems not graceful enough. Do you guys have a brain storm here?

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

I tend to add depot before the platform, like
paper_drop_SW.png
(1.16 MiB) Not downloaded yet
although I think this is overkill.
You can also force servicing by deleting the track that bypasses the depot, of course.

If you want to do that behind the platform, this might work:
after_platform.png
after_platform.png (146.52 KiB) Viewed 1096 times
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

The depot at end of station is not usefull for heavy load, only for single trains. The depots have an implicit two-way signal at entrance, so when the train enters the depot from the station, it will free the platform for another train to come in, and you can end in another traffic jam inside the depot with trains waiting for the platform to be free again.

I found a better variant for the "waypoint" approach. Do not build the waypoint in the branch just before the depot, but just before the split, then another waypoint in the mainline after the split. Then use these orders:

1. go via waypoint 1
2. if reliability is over 80 go to order 5
3. go to nearest depot
4. go to order 6
5. go via waypoint 2
6....

Code: Select all

           D
     -----< >-----
    /      D      \
----------------2---1---------

D = depot
1 & 2 = waypoints

     /-----D-----\
----------------2---1---------
     \-----D-----/
This way, if the train is still in good reliability (no high risk for breakdowns) it will ignore the servicing order and will continue in mainline, forced by the second waypoint, so it won't take the branch by mistake if the mainline is busy yet. If service is needed, it will take the branch for mandatory servicing and will ignore the second waypoint order.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

Alberth wrote:I tend to add depot before the platform, like paper_drop_SW.png although I think this is overkill.
You can also force servicing by deleting the track that bypasses the depot, of course.

If you want to do that behind the platform, this might work:after_platform.png
depot before the platform is a good idea, the layout seems pretty elegant. Good, I like it.
It will never be a overkill for me, cause I like very heavy and busy station, that is my pleasure.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by accipiter2000 »

HGus wrote:The depot at end of station is not usefull for heavy load, only for single trains. The depots have an implicit two-way signal at entrance, so when the train enters the depot from the station, it will free the platform for another train to come in, and you can end in another traffic jam inside the depot with trains waiting for the platform to be free again.

I found a better variant for the "waypoint" approach. Do not build the waypoint in the branch just before the depot, but just before the split, then another waypoint in the mainline after the split. Then use these orders:

1. go via waypoint 1
2. if reliability is over 80 go to order 5
3. go to nearest depot
4. go to order 6
5. go via waypoint 2
6....

Code: Select all

           D
     -----< >-----
    /      D      \
----------------2---1---------

D = depot
1 & 2 = waypoints

     /-----D-----\
----------------2---1---------
     \-----D-----/
This way, if the train is still in good reliability (no high risk for breakdowns) it will ignore the servicing order and will continue in mainline, forced by the second waypoint, so it won't take the branch by mistake if the mainline is busy yet. If service is needed, it will take the branch for mandatory servicing and will ignore the second waypoint order.
if a station is not jammed without depot, then it will not jammed with depot behind each line either. because the unloading time of the second train is enough for the first train to travel out the depot.
if depots are placed around the main line, a impact must exists when the train coming back to the main line. the result of the impact will multiplied when traffic becomes heavy.

for the waypoint approach, I think go via waypoint + service in nearest depot at branch line is simple and good enough. only one waypoint and two order is needed.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

accipiter2000 wrote: if a station is not jammed without depot, then it will not jammed with depot behind each line either. because the unloading time of the second train is enough for the first train to travel out the depot.
I was talking about the fake two-way depots in Untitled-5.png screenshot by Alberth, not the after-platform.png escape depots behind the platforms... sorry the mistake...
Last edited by HGus on 12 Feb 2017 09:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by Alberth »

HGus wrote:I was talking about the fake two-way depots in Untitled-5.png screenshot by Alberth
I posted no such things.
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Re: railway layout with vehicle breakdowns

Post by HGus »

oops, sorry, another mistake,... actually those were accipiter2000 posts...

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