Grenthwaite-Dardingway

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Baldy's Boss
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

If the Grenthwaite-Dardingway route were an independent company I'd be doing fine.
But as it is the company is so sick I can't afford to demolish stations and bridges on abandoned routes I can't afford maintenance on...though my Construction is entirely scrapping tracks and my New Vehicles line entirely selling old ones!
On G-D I'm just junking engines before they slow the whole operation down from old age.

HELP!!
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TillydeanGrandVictorianR.R.,26thJan1951.sav
(3.89 MiB) Downloaded 41 times
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

...and years later,still no one has ideas on how to save this company?
I haven't dared play it any further.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by kamnet »

Well, if this had been the real world, solicitors would have condemned your company three years ago. ;) But, since OpenTTD has a generous and benevolent government, you should just activate cheat mode, loan yourself the money you need at a special 0% rate through the government's COVID-19 pandemic relief bill, and as long as you continue to employ men and women on your railroad and provide vital transportation services, you will not be required to pay it back.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

They had COVID-19 in January 1951?

A cheater,I am not.
I try not to borrow anyway (note my millions in unused credit line...would there be a way to get in the black with it?)
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Kevo00 »

If you're in deep do-do anyway, borrowing some more money to give you some capital try to sort things out isn't going to hurt, is it?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by LaChupacabra »

Baldy's Boss wrote: 29 Jan 2021 08:15 A cheater,I am not.
I try not to borrow anyway (note my millions in unused credit line...would there be a way to get in the black with it?)
The easiest way? (omitting the use of ctrl+alt+c)
1. Disable the infrastructure maintenance costs in the settings - at the beginning you will have a profit higher by 28 million, you will also be able to build as you want.
2. Disable inflation - it made the costs catch up the revenues, and it will become even more difficult with time (inflation lasts for about 170 years).
3. Disable "normal" breakdowns - they cause trains to breakdown all the time, especially the old ones. If you want to keep breakdown, a much better setting is "reduced".

Alt 1. You can add BaseCostMod to the list of addons, where you can freely change most of the cost.

If you want to keep your current settings:
1. Take into account the costs of maintaining the infrastructure - you have too much signaling (you put it manually? When placing the signaling on a new line, press ctrl and drag along the track). Given the amount of traffic, you also have too many station platforms on many lines. Since you're not using electric locomotives yet, get rid of the traction - it only raises costs now. The cost of maintaining a tunnel / bridge section is 3x that of a regular track / road section. Overall, by keeping your traffic flowing, you can cut costs by up to 50%.
2. Sell unnecessary trains - especially the old ones that block traffic (necessarily!) - you won't get any profit from them. If the trains wait empty in front of the station or run not fully loaded, they probably should also be disposed of or used elsewhere. Currently the Tillydean-Treport line is only loss-making, but after changes it can bring good profit.
3. Locomotives should carry more cargo due to their high maintenance costs, otherwise they will not be able to make a living
4. On passenger lines, keep gaps between trains so that they do not run empty - the easiest way to do it is to increase the gaps between traffic lights.
5. On freight lines, if you see such an option, try to carry loads in both directions - it increases your income by up to 100%. Normally you could use a vehicle refit for this to carry loads, but it's very expensive here, so you'd better not.
6. Build routes in a way that forces servicing - it is a matter of playing style, but when the breakdowns are on, it is really worth it. You did one such depot in Grenthwaite Springs. Preferably in front of the stations at both ends of the route, and when it is longer, also in the middle. At the same time, it is worth removing the remaining depots in random places. I additionally extend the period between services as much as possible so that the trains do not even try to leave the route to random depots, because they can get lost.
7. Use sharing orders (absolutely necessary!) - when you copy a vehicle or orders, do it with Ctrl pressed. Thanks to this, you will create a group where changing the order for one vehicle will immediately change the orders for the others. You can also add an existing vehicle to a group. This is very helpful when you have many vehicles on the line and you want to change their route.
8. Short journeys are usually much less profitable than long journeys. You build short or very short, therefore your income is low. Of course, too long routes are not always worth building - a reasonable limit is the length of 200 days (with normal breakdowns probably 100). Yes, days. Optimal routes will be little bit shorter.

I must admit that I was expecting some trivial challenge, but it was not that easy. :) These conditions (settings) and the company's situation are really not light.
In any case, I managed to bring the company straight. It is not permanent. There is no time to breathe as soon all trains will need to be replaced...
This save is just an example of what can be done and that can work. I probably removed the Tillydean-Treport line unnecessarily. It can be done better for sure. ;)
Attachments
Tillydean Grand Victorian R.R., 1951-04-07.sav
(4.14 MiB) Downloaded 16 times
I am sorry for may English. I know is bed.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Well,I certainly would not want to lose the Tillydean line since that's where the company started.
Will take a bit to analyze everything you did there.

So it seems the file-uploading system here has changed since the last time I tried?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by kamnet »

The system hasn't changed, but we did upgrade the forum software last year to the latest version, so it looks a little different.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Well,when I tried to make an upload I couldn't figure out how to get to the .openttd directory as no .* subdirectories were available.
Is the file menu choice not part of the forum software?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by kamnet »

Baldy's Boss wrote: 20 Feb 2021 04:18 Well,when I tried to make an upload I couldn't figure out how to get to the .openttd directory as no .* subdirectories were available.
Is the file menu choice not part of the forum software?
Try using *.* instead?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Can't find a way to bring the .* directories up in my "All Files" selection of the "File Upload" window.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by kamnet »

Baldy's Boss wrote: 20 Feb 2021 23:03 Can't find a way to bring the .* directories up in my "All Files" selection of the "File Upload" window.
This sounds like an issue of either your web browser your your OS' file management system. The forum doesn't have any control over what files are displayed on your computer.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

I believe I have worked around the upload problem with a symbolic link.
Here to check are two savegames not related to Tillydean let along the Grenthwaite-Dardingway line but with their own problems...
with Liverbridge,WHY am I losing money on Sundnor End coal service despite massive volume?
With Trudhattan...what did I do wrong at Lewisstable Park?...I'm going to have to tear down this station,I think,I was trying to increase throughput by adding exit tracks back to Tesberg Bay but a lack of signals(?) had the wood trains stopping in the depot rather than providing the previously-lucrative goods to Presditch.(In past games I've generally tried to be all-maglev by 2050 but the increased menu of higher-volume NewGRF vehicles I've added have given me reasons to keep building out electrics in the 2040s).
Attachments
LiverbridgeJintyrailGroup,1stJul2049.sav
High coal production,high shipment rates.Sundnor End loses money
(4.36 MiB) Downloaded 12 times
Trudhattan&FrinfordR.R.Co.,1stMay2044.sav
Played for a year after this before I noticed the disastrous consequences at Lewisstable Park.
(4.59 MiB) Downloaded 21 times
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Simons Mith »

Sundnor: Simply, too many trains, in particular one very old one which is slowing all the others down.
While it's 'nice' to have a train always waiting at a station to load, if you ever have more than one waiting that's a sign of overcapacity.
You can ditch several trains on that route and the remainder will get the same throughput as now. At present they're holding each other up.
Also, some signs are placed in ways that let trains block access to platforms. Never let a train wait over a junction, because then one train can block multiple others!

Also, I think a lot of the routes are a little short. I always like my trains to travel at least 2-3 screens.

Finally, while it matters less with stronger trains, you've got some steep slopes here and there.

Lewistable: You've got a nice deadlock-generator set up there. Due to a signalling error, the trains can't get from the depot to the third platform (if the other two platforms happen to be full), and you've got three goods trains set up to wait for full loads. So if there's a delivery hiccup and they all end up waiting at once, the goods trains block the wood deliveries. The quick fix is to share the train orders so that you only have two order sets to worry about, then turn off the full load requirement for the goods trains. A more elegant fix is to have a guaranteed wood delivery platform, or a dedicated goods-only platform.

This one is an easy trap to fall into IME - you have a system that works ok, then it grows, and you add one more train, and at some unpredictable point the arrivals happen in the perfect wrong order and that one extra train finally gets its chance to clog the whole route up completely. But it can sometimes be months or years before the rake in the grass you've set for yourself finally triggers.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Simons Mith wrote: 07 Mar 2021 04:00 Sundnor: Simply, too many trains, in particular one very old one which is slowing all the others down.
While it's 'nice' to have a train always waiting at a station to load, if you ever have more than one waiting that's a sign of overcapacity.
You can ditch several trains on that route and the remainder will get the same throughput as now. At present they're holding each other up.
Also, some signs are placed in ways that let trains block access to platforms. Never let a train wait over a junction, because then one train can block multiple others!

Also, I think a lot of the routes are a little short. I always like my trains to travel at least 2-3 screens.

Finally, while it matters less with stronger trains, you've got some steep slopes here and there.

Lewistable: You've got a nice deadlock-generator set up there. Due to a signalling error, the trains can't get from the depot to the third platform (if the other two platforms happen to be full), and you've got three goods trains set up to wait for full loads. So if there's a delivery hiccup and they all end up waiting at once, the goods trains block the wood deliveries. The quick fix is to share the train orders so that you only have two order sets to worry about, then turn off the full load requirement for the goods trains. A more elegant fix is to have a guaranteed wood delivery platform, or a dedicated goods-only platform.

This one is an easy trap to fall into IME - you have a system that works ok, then it grows, and you add one more train, and at some unpredictable point the arrivals happen in the perfect wrong order and that one extra train finally gets its chance to clog the whole route up completely. But it can sometimes be months or years before the rake in the grass you've set for yourself finally triggers.
Thanks.

2-3 screens at what zoom level?
I sold the oldest trains at Sundnor and at Tesberg Bay Wood.
I rebuilt the station at Lewisstable Park but the game decided to rename it,which voided all the trains' orders even though I switched back to the old name,and though there's now a goods exit I have to babysit and make sure a third goods train doesn't take a platform beyond the ones that can use that exit.One platform is forced by a signal to take the wood exit.
Attachments
Trudhattan&FrinfordR.R.Co.,1stJan2047.sav
Not back to old levels but much recovered there...the Brushes are aging,what's an upgrade?
(4.6 MiB) Downloaded 13 times
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Simons Mith »

I may have a look at your new save this weekend, but commenting sight unseen for now:

2-3 screens - well, let's say 100+ tiles. Less than 50 tiles = definitely too short. Same screen = use trucks.

Also, as trains get faster over time (and their running costs rise), routes should get longer to match. I've always found it's easier to make routes that are too short rather than too long; besides, a route that's slightly too long now will become okay when you get faster locomotives.

Babysitting: If you're having to babysit, you haven't fully split the routes. I left the station unaltered but rerouted the tracks so that the goods trains were completely segregated from the wood, and had one platform of their own. If they can mix, then the minute your attention goes elsewhere they'll start hogging all three platforms. Lol it's like trying to wrangle small children sometimes, but this setup restored a smooth flow:
Note also the compulsory servicing on exit (when the wood trains at least are nice and light, so they have good acceleration), in case a train has to wait a long time for a load or unload.
Attachments
Trudhattan & Frinford R.R. Co., 5th Dec 2047.png
(383.42 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

So would you say the "Coastal long haul" group/route in the attached is too long?
I put in an order to replace the Pacific engines with cheaper-to-run,less reliable but equally fast Klondykes but I don't know if they can turn it to profit.

(And I can't seem to stop jams at the East Malwich wood/oil station).
Attachments
TuhavenandBadburgRRCo.,1stApr1919.sav
(4.3 MiB) Downloaded 5 times
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Simons Mith »

Looks like that route is too long, but not by much.

https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Manual/Game ... o%20income

The long haul distance there is about 700 tiles, so you are over the hump on the payment curve.
Unfortunately, that route is also rather hilly and your trains are struggling. I haven't determined
what the average speed is but it sure ain't 90mph.

I'd never tolerate a train running at 1mph and you've got at least one place where that happens.
Also, because it's not fully double tracked, trains are holding one another up in both directions.

If it was flat and smooth and the trains were able to sustain full speed it would be nicely profitable,
and profits would actually improve when some faster trains come online in a few more decades.

I'm going to try building a two-way high-level track so the trains don't have to climb and descend
so much. Merely smoothing things as much as I could in-situ did help, but wasn't enough.

The other way would be to split the route into half - provdided you can persuade a midpoint town
to accept a station, and that might be tricky. :-)
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Simons Mith wrote: 20 Mar 2021 15:55 Looks like that route is too long, but not by much.

https://wiki.openttd.org/en/Manual/Game ... o%20income

The long haul distance there is about 700 tiles, so you are over the hump on the payment curve.
Unfortunately, that route is also rather hilly and your trains are struggling. I haven't determined
what the average speed is but it sure ain't 90mph.

I'd never tolerate a train running at 1mph and you've got at least one place where that happens.
Also, because it's not fully double tracked, trains are holding one another up in both directions.

If it was flat and smooth and the trains were able to sustain full speed it would be nicely profitable,
and profits would actually improve when some faster trains come online in a few more decades.

I'm going to try building a two-way high-level track so the trains don't have to climb and descend
so much. Merely smoothing things as much as I could in-situ did help, but wasn't enough.

The other way would be to split the route into half - provdided you can persuade a midpoint town
to accept a station, and that might be tricky. :-)
I wouldn't call that route hilly,I did my best to hug the sea level (as Vanderbilt did with his railroads,the "Water level route" philosophy) except where I had to go around the smaller towns between the large ones I chose to connect.Maybe the T&B can keep that service alive as a loss-leader while waiting for better equipment if other services can keep the company in profit.
The struggling up hill is certainly a problem when engines are either underpowered or break down in bad places where acceleration becomes difficult on restart...so is reliability,running cost,or power or tractive effort most important to optimize?

Attached however is a save where mountainous terrain appears to be strangling a company in its cradle despite the world's largest city being tailor made for a station that quickly became jam-packed with passengers.
Attachments
OldLiverchesterTransport,1stJun1872.sav
Any escape from doom?
(3.72 MiB) Downloaded 6 times
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Simons Mith »

Optimisation: The tracks.

Simple heuristic for hill climbing: Make sure your 'up' tiles are spaced out more than one train length apart. Smooth ups and downs as much as you can. Cuttings, embankments, tunnels, and especially bridges with their ends at different heights can help a lot.
Two or three ups at once is a killer for a marginally-performing train. Until you enter the 21st century you have to be gentler.
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Screenshot_20210320_171435.png
(834.45 KiB) Not downloaded yet
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