Grenthwaite-Dardingway

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Baldy's Boss
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Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

This is a busy and potentially quite lucrative passenger route,it has profitable trains but also a number of money-losers.
The Grenthwaite end is always my most backlogged station since I began service in the 1870s,I have been snapping up building sites for a central platform as they become available but there's still the one shop-and-office building whose denizens apparently appreciate the convenient rail connections and don't want to vacate.
Most of the trains appear to be in stop-and-go traffic en route to Dardingway (the return journey is accomplished with much less fuss).I've been adding signals here and there to make room for more.
But is there anything I can do to increase throughput besides wait for the availability of engines that are less breakdown-prone and more able to go up the inclines?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Sylf »

Before I present my suggestion, I suggest you learn about shared order. https://wiki.openttd.org/Order_checker#Shared_Orders
One of the suggestions I'm about to make will require you to change orders for every trains on that line. If you've been using shared order, you need to only make 1 order.

That suggestion is to add "go to depot" order for maintenance. If you order the train to nearest train depot after each station visit, the train will start with a high reliability rating.
Also, the locomotive you are using on that route is too weak for the number of carriages it's pulling. That slows down the train more, and that increases the chance for these trains to break down en route. Actually, this is a very poor choice of locomotive. It's weak, and it's not very reliable.

Trains like 4-4-0 American or 4-6-0 Ten Wheelers are much stronger, and more reliable. Even if their running costs are higher, their reliably timely travels will more than make up the difference.

The long tunnel near one end of the line is negating the signal density elsewhere in the line. Consider replacing the tunnels with lines above the ground.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Forcing depot service of course can easily be done by removing the section of track that goes across the depot entrance.

Otherwise...I have had Ten-Wheelers in the mix at the Tillydean-Treport service with which the company started in 1837(with ancient Norris engines),and they haven't stood out as the route's best performers.
You're saying that even though the Spinner is rated at 70 mph and the Ten-Wheeler at 65 mph,the Ten-Wheeler's 80% higher horsepower and just-over-double tractive effort mean,in concert with the 99% vs,. 76% Reliability edge,that it will actually be able to achieve and maintain 65 mph more easily?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Sylf »

Try it out yourself, and discard any changes if you don't like it.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Made the substitution accelerated by forced depot visits...traffic flowing better,backlog declining,but return on investment not yet there!
The cost was massive.I note that I apparently briefly used an earlier version of the American when starting this route.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Sylf »

You should also reduce the number of trains running on that line.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Sylf wrote:You should also reduce the number of trains running on that line.
After they stop filling up at the Grenthwaite end I can rationalize.
The trains with older slower wagons would be downsized.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Sylf »

When you have too many trains in a line, there's a greater chance they will slow each other down. Slow or stopped trains are transporting less/no cargo. It's better to have less trains that are moving at constant speed.
I deleted 5 trains in this save (I picked random 5), replaced tunnels with above-ground lines, connected the third platform at Grenthwaite Springs, and the passenger/mail build-up at Grenthwaite Springs is gone. And all trains are making good income across the board.

More is not always the answer to waiting cargo.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Here's my January 1895 for comparison.No train number reduction yet,but the backlog is gone,the ratings are up,and the tunnel is shorter.
I see you have more revenue and profit than I had though you did nothing about Train17,which was holding up the whole Tillydean-Treport service.
But despite the reduced number of trains train running costs are only scarcely less than mine...when did you sell them?
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Alberth »

Why do you go over the mountain instead of around it near Treport?

The AI that built the tracks probably believed it was shorter (and it is, by a few tiles), but pushing engines up on a hill should be a lot more shorter than a few tiles. Going up means slower trains, but you want the same speed over the entire track. Going around the mountain may be a little longer, but engines keep running, which easily makes up for that little detour.
treport station
treport station
treport_station.png (232.56 KiB) Viewed 4624 times
and the other connection
and the other connection
around_mountain.png (664.21 KiB) Viewed 4624 times
If you do push over the mountain, you generally want to have more track there, as going up slows trains down, so to keep the same amount of trains / time unit passing by, you need more track.

I agree with Sylf that the number of trains on those tracks is too large for their current speed. I use the rule that at most one train may be blocked by a broken train. If that gets more, it becomes useful to add a second track next to the already existing track (in the direction of blockage, which differs if you move cargo (empty trains move faster thus need less track)), In your case, you'd need to double the track all the way, in both directions.

Last but not least, the last junction before the platform should be as close to the platforms as possible. Train swapping goes faster, giving you more throughput for free (just move the junction and its signals).
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Alberth wrote:Why do you go over the mountain instead of around it near Treport?

The AI that built the tracks probably believed it was shorter (and it is, by a few tiles), but pushing engines up on a hill should be a lot more shorter than a few tiles. Going up means slower trains, but you want the same speed over the entire track. Going around the mountain may be a little longer, but engines keep running, which easily makes up for that little detour.
treport_station.png
around_mountain.png

If you do push over the mountain, you generally want to have more track there, as going up slows trains down, so to keep the same amount of trains / time unit passing by, you need more track.

I agree with Sylf that the number of trains on those tracks is too large for their current speed. I use the rule that at most one train may be blocked by a broken train. If that gets more, it becomes useful to add a second track next to the already existing track (in the direction of blockage, which differs if you move cargo (empty trains move faster thus need less track)), In your case, you'd need to double the track all the way, in both directions.

Last but not least, the last junction before the platform should be as close to the platforms as possible. Train swapping goes faster, giving you more throughput for free (just move the junction and its signals).
This is not the first time you've recommended a more level,more roundabout route between Tillydean and Treport:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=73361&p=1153077#p1153077
No AIs were involved in my track planning....though you'll note that the 1837 layout climbed more than the current one.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Alberth »

Yeah, it looked somewhat familiar already :)

Well, I can't help it if the boss ignores my reports, I have no problem getting paid twice for the same expensive advice :p
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Grenthwaite-Dardingway service is undergoing further tortuous upgrades.
Train 94 is currently the "prototype" for a state-of-the-art train,but older trains are still carrying passengers and I am selling off slow old wagons when they are empty...which occurs rarely.It just doesn't feel right to make passengers walk from a depot because they boarded an old car...not to mention I don't get their ticket money.Once I have fast powerful new trains as a norm I'll be able to make do with fewer trains but in the meantime old ones slow things down.
Is there a way to make the older cars less likely to be boarded?...because they have lower capacity,they tend to empty and be available for boarding first.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Sylf »

Baldy's Boss wrote:Is there a way to make the older cars less likely to be boarded?...because they have lower capacity,they tend to empty and be available for boarding first.
No - it's either all or nothing. You can give the train "unload and leave empty" order at one point, followed by "go to nearest depot and stop" order. Without the "leave empty (no loading)" order, the passengers and mail handlers don't care how old or how crappy that vehicle is, in the world of openttd.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Alberth »

That sounds like the simplest option, unshare the orders of the train you want to sell, then modify it so it delivers it pax, and goes to the depot empty, where you can replace it. Once replaced, copy its orders from another train, so its shared again, and set it off on its way.

As for old trains, passengers have the choice between not traveling or taking this old thing. Not much of a choice eh? :)
Station ratings do care for new trains though, the city council does appreciate new shiny trains coming in!
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

Alberth wrote:That sounds like the simplest option, unshare the orders of the train you want to sell, then modify it so it delivers it pax, and goes to the depot empty, where you can replace it. Once replaced, copy its orders from another train, so its shared again, and set it off on its way.

As for old trains, passengers have the choice between not traveling or taking this old thing. Not much of a choice eh? :)
Station ratings do care for new trains though, the city council does appreciate new shiny trains coming in!
At Tillydean Woods the middle platform has a depot behind it,and I've interrupted loading/unloading to send trains with old cars in there when the old cars empty,I've almost gotten the old cars out of the Tillydean-Treport line.But when the passengers have a train whose consist includes a brand new 110 mph passenger car and a 60-year-old 6-wheel coach,you'd think they'd pick the new car.

I'll try the unload & leave empty on the Grenthwaite-Dardingway line,I expect I'll sell whole trains and buy replacement trains at an inbound depot rather than sending them on a long-distance deadhead trip or build temporary return tracks.
Thinning the rosters will take thought...some trains are too short to make money after the sale of old cars but some will be lengthened and others sold.Some recent replacement of obsolete equipment has actually brought the company into financial distress so the money-losers can't be kept in service as is.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Eddi »

Baldy's Boss wrote:But when the passengers have a train whose consist includes a brand new 110 mph passenger car and a 60-year-old 6-wheel coach,you'd think they'd pick the new car.
have you run a survey? maybe they dislike the interior design of the new one?
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

I've sold off a significant number of the slow & low-capacity trains but the company's poor cash position and declining value have only allowed buying two new trains for the route.I am hoping things will turn around.

Editing to add another year's save.Grenthwaite-Dardingway is now studded with top earners,especially the new-model trains.The company as a whole is about at break-even but the decline in value has bottomed out.Work needs to be done including updating some trains acquired with an AI whose engineering department was simply besotted with the Tank engine.Tillydean-Treport trains also need to be brought into profit.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

In case anyone cares,years have rolled by and the Grenthwaite-Dardingway route is still a top earner...the present "prototype" consists are represented by Trains 66 and 95.
A few pre-1900 mail cars are still on the route slowing things down a bit.
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Re: Grenthwaite-Dardingway

Post by Baldy's Boss »

The route is a top earner but the company is in precarious shape.Any way to improve it on a budget so it keeps keeping me afloat?
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