[Base Music] OpenMSX v0.3.1

OpenTTD is a fully open-sourced reimplementation of TTD, written in C++, boasting improved gameplay and many new features.

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MrSmoke
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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by MrSmoke » 28 Dec 2009 13:21

as long as i can still play the old music ill be happy....i love the music :) reminds me of the game itself heh

im a muso of some sort so ill try and have a play and see if i can get anything going :p

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 15:26

Holy cow. Look away from the forums for a couple of hours and an entire pages has been posted :D Things are moving way quicker with the MRP the expected :shock:
kamnet wrote: for anything related to music a CC license appears to be the preferred route, while GPL is preferred for actual computer software.
I actually agree to this. GPL is mostly about coding. A very nice GPL like license for music would be the free art license. But i think the cc sampling + will work fine. I don't think anyone involved with the project (me, lucas and peterts brother so far) are going to object to it. I think within a week (maybe 2 since it's still holidays) we should have decided and finalised what license we are going to use.
-lucas- wrote:
I think we should keep the pre-existing tracks seperated from the tracks at least three people (petert('s brother), jvlomax and myself) are going to compose now. So i suggest we make a wiki or topic about the sound alike project, complete with (nick)names, tracks in progress, tracks finished and tracks that still need a ´translation´.
I have updated the wiki to try and reflect the current state of the project. If what is written there is wrong, or not true, by all means edit it, but I believe that is what we have sort of decided so far.
-lucas- wrote:
As far as i understand, jvlomax wants to start with Jammit, i would like to sink my teeth into the intro music, so if petert('s brother) also picks one, that would be three good testcases.
I won't have any thing of substance for another week or two when the holidays are over :?. How much time are we looking at to get this finished? a month? 2 months? Guess it kind of depends how many composers we get

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by petert » 28 Dec 2009 15:34

I see you've put me and my brother as "Unknown" and you and lucas with a song title. Are we supposed to be re-creating a specific theme/type of song?

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Ammler
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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 28 Dec 2009 15:42

It is my last post about license, I promise. ;-)

OpenSFX should be a example, why not using CC license for new work, as your goal is to make a "open" clone of TTD, you should also give openttd the possibility to distribute the music with it. If you license it with CC, this isn't possible for Debian users for example.

And it very much depend which license you chose, new contributors, who don't care, will use the same license...

Anyway, I also very much like your contributions so far, they are already very nice. :bow:
(and they use a free/open license :-)

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Ammler

P.S.: The main difference between CC and GPL is the need of opensource. What is the source of a midi file?

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 15:51

petert wrote:I see you've put me and my brother as "Unknown" and you and lucas with a song title. Are we supposed to be re-creating a specific theme/type of song?
That's what has been suggested, but in my opinion you could just say "Track 15" instead of a specific song and just do what ever you want, then that song will be track 15. For now though i think that we should just create one track each, and work from there, re-interpreted tracks or not.
Ammler wrote: P.S.: The main difference between CC and GPL is the need of opensource. What is the source of a midi file?
That's what i was thinking too. The free art license is a very close comparison to the GPL for music (or art in general). Then again, we could do like mozilla and make an "Ottd public license" :wink: I think a thread for discussing MRP license might be in order :?:

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by petert » 28 Dec 2009 15:54

jvlomax wrote:That's what has been suggested, but in my opinion you could just say "Track 15" instead of a specific song and just do what ever you want, then that song will be track 15. For now though i think that we should just create one track each, and work from there, re-interpreted tracks or not.
We are currently working on a song called "Train Madness", and I (and hopefully Tom) would like to keep the title instead of "Track XX".

Edit: Have we decided on a short name for the Music Replacement Project? Will it be OpenMSX?

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 16:03

Excellent! :D

As for name, i have just been using MRP (music replacement pack/project). OpenMSX seems like the logical progression, but what would the X be short for.....? Maybe combine the two to OpenMRP? I have no clue, and don't really care too much for that matter :)

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Rubidium » 28 Dec 2009 16:08

jvlomax wrote:make an "Ottd public license"
Any idea how silly it is to make a new license? Any idea how much work it is to write a proper license? Any idea how much work you give the packagers as they need to review that license and determine whether it's free enough for them? Any idea how many people will not have a clue what such a license entails, whereas lots of people know what e.g. GPL or the CC licenses are? Any idea how the different 'local' laws influence your license?
It's better for everyone to stay with one of the major generally known licenses.

And for what it's worth I think Mozilla's public license is a stupid license.


Anyhow, my suggestions are to find a license that allows the set to be distributed via BaNaNaS, OpenTTD's packages, OpenTTD's installers and the different Linux repositories (including 'non-free' repositories). If this wouldn't be allowed, the set would basically be meaningless.

It would be an added bonus if it were distributable in the main repositories, see the main section in the http://www.debian.org/legal/licenses/ page for 'free' enough licenses. This basically means that there may be no "non-commercial" clause in the license.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 28 Dec 2009 16:19

Ammler wrote:OpenSFX should be a example, why not using CC license for new work, as your goal is to make a "open" clone of TTD, you should also give openttd the possibility to distribute the music with it. If you license it with CC, this isn't possible for Debian users for example.
I don't understand, is there something in the EULA for Debian that prevents its users from downloading and installing content with a Creative Commons license?
petert wrote:
jvlomax wrote:That's what has been suggested, but in my opinion you could just say "Track 15" instead of a specific song and just do what ever you want, then that song will be track 15. For now though i think that we should just create one track each, and work from there, re-interpreted tracks or not.
We are currently working on a song called "Train Madness", and I (and hopefully Tom) would like to keep the title instead of "Track XX".
It's not possible to actually duplicate specific tracks from the TTD game, since we don't have a license to sample them, so be careful with that :lol: But every track will have it's own title, we just need to decide (eventually) which slot to put them in.
Edit: Have we decided on a short name for the Music Replacement Project? Will it be OpenMSX?
[/quote]

I'm a simple person. "Music Replacement Project" may be a little more to type, but it plainly states what it is.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 16:26

Whoa there rubidum, I was kidding. I agree with you, the mozilla license is just silly.

And when I was saying naming it track 15, I was meaning as a temp name to use, just so the song has a temp slot, not that track 15 should be copied or that it should forever after be called track 15.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by kamnet » 28 Dec 2009 16:26

Rubidium wrote:Anyhow, my suggestions are to find a license that allows the set to be distributed via BaNaNaS, OpenTTD's packages, OpenTTD's installers and the different Linux repositories (including 'non-free' repositories). If this wouldn't be allowed, the set would basically be meaningless.

It would be an added bonus if it were distributable in the main repositories, see the main section in the http://www.debian.org/legal/licenses/ page for 'free' enough licenses. This basically means that there may be no "non-commercial" clause in the license.
OpenSFX is currently licensed under the Creative Commons Sampling+ 1.0 license, which is why I suggested it for this project as well. So, is this to say that because of that license, OpenSFX will not be pre-installed w/ Debian distributions?

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by andythenorth » 28 Dec 2009 18:38

jvlomax wrote: I think within a week (maybe 2 since it's still holidays) we should have decided and finalised what license we are going to use
Why wait? Just use the GPL. It's really the easiest thing to do ;)

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 19:08

I don't want to flame you or be rude, but read the posts. GPL is mainly for software with code. GPL is all about open source. What would be open source for a .mid file? We need a license that works for artistic works. But as pointed out, the OpenSFX is released under cc sampling +. I think they should both be on the same license, and it would be easier to realese MRP/OpenMSX/WhateverItWillBeCalled under cc sampling +, than to change the OPenSFX one.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by Ammler » 28 Dec 2009 19:36

As promised, I won't say anything to the license stuff anymore
just maybe you read this thread

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=39523

It might tell you why GPL could be better.
As graphics isn't that much code either.

Greets
Ammler

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by andythenorth » 28 Dec 2009 20:31

jvlomax wrote:I don't want to flame you or be rude, but read the posts.
Ach no, that's not a flame or rude :)

Just some of us have been through all this before. GPL is fine for things that aren't strictly compiled software. It's stretching it a bit, but it works, and it makes it hassle free.

http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... pl#p748517

FWIW most of the (currently active) newgrf community is either on GPL or 'don't talk to me about boring licenses' form of license :)

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by jvlomax » 28 Dec 2009 21:09

If we can get all the music composers to agree to the GPL, that would without a doubt be the bes :D. I guess it was mostly an issue when talking about finding already composed music on the net, and getting the composers consent to distribute it with OTTD under GPL. Now that it seems like the music will be "in-house", that shouldn't really be an issue anymore :D Sometimes it seems we are all arguing about agreeing

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by thagamer » 28 Dec 2009 21:13

I'm having some troube getting the music packs to work. I have extracted them to the /gm folder to no avail. The only option I have for music is no_music.

Is there a wy to get them on the online bananas server for download?

Edit...

"Nevermind...I got it working. I just love the Scott Joplin stuff!"

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GNU Public License vs. Creative Commons

Post by kamnet » 29 Dec 2009 01:44

Here is the main problem that I see with GPL v.2: it does not address the performance of musical works. MIDI files are musical scores, which are not only covered by copyright but also by other laws which compensate the owner for performance of the work. This is not something that software code or even graphics files have to address. GPL covers distribution of the files, but not their performances.

The Creative Commons Sampling+ 1.0 license directly addresses three areas: distribution of the file, mixing and sampling of the file, and performances. 'Performance' is broadly defined as anything from TV and radio broadcasts, to live streaming or downloaded podcasts, downloaded files and files played inside a video game.

If the concern is about potentially bundling the music with the OTTD software, and then bundling it into other projects which may have an associated cost, here is what the CC Sampling+ license says:
Noncommercial sharing of verbatim copies permitted.

1. You may reproduce the Work, incorporate the Work into one or more Collective Works, and reproduce the Work as incorporated in the Collective Works. You may distribute copies or phonorecords of, display publicly, perform publicly, and perform publicly by means of a digital audio transmission the Work including or incorporated in Collective Works.

2. You may not exercise any of the rights granted to You in the paragraph immediately above in any manner that is primarily intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation. The exchange of the Work for other copyrighted works by means of digital file-sharing or otherwise shall not be considered to be intended for or directed toward commercial advantage or private monetary compensation, provided there is no payment of any monetary compensation in connection with the exchange of copyrighted works.
From my understanding (IANAL), it would be acceptable to CCSP+ files with a Debian distro, even one that is paid for, since the purpose of distributing the files with Debian is not done with the intent of actually selling the files covered uncer CCSP+.

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Re: OTTD Music Replacement Project

Post by petert » 29 Dec 2009 02:28

Here is a little logo you can put into your signatures for the Music Replacement Project.

The code for sigs:

Code: Select all

[url=http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46479][img]http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=121962[/img][/url]
Big thanks to Eddi|zuHause and glx for teaching me how to edit the lang files.
Attachments
OpenMRP.png
OpenMRP.png (2.67 KiB) Viewed 4902 times

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Re: GNU Public License vs. Creative Commons

Post by Eddi » 29 Dec 2009 02:42

kamnet wrote:Here is the main problem that I see with GPL v.2: it does not address the performance of musical works. MIDI files are musical scores, which are not only covered by copyright but also by other laws which compensate the owner for performance of the work.
I disagree here. MIDI files only contain the sheet music, there is no performing artist involved, only the composer has any rights to the file.

This is in contrast to mp3 or wav files, which are generally a recording of some sort, so there is both the composer and the performing artist involved.
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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