2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Discuss, get help with, or post new graphics for TTDPatch and OpenTTD, using the NewGRF system, here. Graphics for plain TTD also acceptable here.

Moderator: Graphics Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
kamnet
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7291
Joined: 28 Sep 2009 17:15
Location: Eastern KY
Contact:

2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by kamnet »

2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

This topic is the start of a proposed 2CC Trolleybus Set. I would like to have this opened up for more community involvement, not only on TT-Forums but from others such as Reddit and Discord. As of right now there is no code (2CC Trams code is suggested for the moment), nor are there any sprites. But before we get to that, I would like to lay down some ground rules on what I think would make a good set.

1. Must be at least a 2CC livery. Single-color liveries and alternate 2CC livery styles are welcomed and encouraged.
2. I would like to see at least 2x zoom level, if not 4x zoom level sprites. Let's make this look as great as possible.
3. Coded to work with the various NRT road sets that are implementing trolleybus support.
4. An enhanced set of sound effects for horns and motors would be nice.
5. All graphics, sounds and code contributed will be licensed under GPLv2. Creators are free to re-license their original contributions under other conditions in order projects.

For my end, I've started by creating a spreadsheet breaking down trolleybuses by country, and then by each city they operated in, and then by manufacturer and year they were introduced. I am trying to get as many stats as possible so that we can be close to realistic, but some info may not be publicly available or just lost to time, so we might have to make things up. Which is OK, this is just a game after all. But the more information that can be sourced and verified, the better quality sprites and code can be created to support it. The upside to doing it like this is that not only will it make it easier to pull together rosters organized by manufacturer, we also have info (and later graphics and code) if anybody would like to put together city/regional/country-specific sets with specific company liveries. For example, all of this research started to help McZapkie create a trolleybus set for Poland.

If you would like to help contribute to the research and documentation, please send me a PM and I'll add you to the project spreadsheet for editing.
Google Spreadsheet
Discord chat channel

------------------------------
And here's a breakdown of each column and what the data is for:
[+] Spoiler
Name: Manufacturer name and model number of the vehicle.
Car Nos: The vehicle identification numbers for each model, to aid others in researching.
First Built: Year when the first vehicle of this model for this system was built.
First Used: Year when the system first started using them.
Last Built: Year when the manufacturer last built this model for this system.
Last Used: The last year the model was used before it was retired, sold, etc.
Life Time: How many years the model was in service.
Heritage Service: Years when select vehicles of this model were used for special events, non-revenue service, etc.
Weight: in metric tons (mT). Use the [?] link to convert into metric, rounded to nearest tenth.
Power: in kWh. Use the [?] link to convert into metric, rounded to whole number. Add a note to the cell if you only know the engine manufacturer or model number.
Speed: in km/h. Use the [?] link to convert into metric, rounded to whole number.
Doors (PDWE): "Power Door Width Equivalent", a standard created to determine how fast a vehicle can load or unload. Doors are typically either single-width (1) or double-width (2). Add up the numbers for all the doors. This typically ends up being 2, 3, 4, or 6.
Length, Width, Height:, in meters. Use the [?] link to convert into metric, rounded to nearest tenth.
Pax: Number of passengers, both sitting and standing (max load or crush load, if known).
[@], [W], [#]: A hyperlink to photos, Wikipedia article (in any language) or URL with more info.
Notes: Any additional information that can be helpful for more research.

User avatar
kamnet
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7291
Joined: 28 Sep 2009 17:15
Location: Eastern KY
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by kamnet »

STD wrote:
09 Jul 2020 07:36
Great job done. Thank you very much :bow: .
I don't know where to write the following :roll: . My wishes for the future, if you want to do this-2CC| trolleybuses. You can made a variety of models from different countries of the world, as you have done in other similar sets.
I think Trolleybuses are deserving of their own set, for sure. A few months ago I helped McZapke with organizing a collection of Polish trolleybuses. When I get more time in the future I may expand my research, organizing by both country and manufacturer.
Arnoud wrote:
09 Jul 2020 19:24
Having a 2cc trolleybus set would indeed be great. I only code though, someone else would need to draw them.
And with that, here we go... ;) :D

User avatar
2TallTyler
Traffic Manager
Traffic Manager
Posts: 162
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 18:15
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by 2TallTyler »

Count me in! I sent you a PM.

User avatar
2TallTyler
Traffic Manager
Traffic Manager
Posts: 162
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 18:15
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by 2TallTyler »

Thanks to Timberwolf's tutorial, I've started using Magicavoxel and Gorender to create sprites for this set.

The beauty of this toolchain is that Gorender can generate multiple zoom levels at once, so we can offer the set in multiple detail levels (and file sizes) for visual compatibility with other NewGRFs. Here's an initial sprite of a Boston trolleybus in 2x and 4x zoom. I still have to code a test vehicle to ensure it fits beneath the wires.

Thanks, Timberwolf!
neoplan_an440_2x_8bpp.png
neoplan_an440_2x_8bpp.png (6.2 KiB) Viewed 894 times
neoplan_an440_4x_8bpp.png
(15.85 KiB) Not downloaded yet

Arnoud
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 60
Joined: 29 Sep 2008 05:02
Location: Amsterdam

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by Arnoud »

Looks very good.

User avatar
2TallTyler
Traffic Manager
Traffic Manager
Posts: 162
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 18:15
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by 2TallTyler »

Flarnpool Transport, 2021-02-17.png
Flarnpool Transport, 2021-02-17.png (35.8 KiB) Viewed 796 times
Another Boston bus, the 1970s-vintage Flyer E800 (screenshot with transparent wires; both require electrified roads).

Can anybody point me toward formulas to calculate purchase and running costs?

Trolleybuses are more expensive than diesel buses and also cost more to operate, but last 20 years instead of 12. I'd like to reflect this against other popular road vehicle sets, as well as ensure they're balanced with the OpenTTD economy.

Timberwolf
Traffic Manager
Traffic Manager
Posts: 156
Joined: 22 May 2006 18:25
Location: London-ish.
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by Timberwolf »

These are looking great! Glad to see someone else managing to make use of GoRender, it's not so hopelessly esoteric that only I can use it successfully :)

User avatar
Hyronymus
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 13221
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 10:36
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by Hyronymus »

Nice suggestion, I'll see what I can add for the trolleybus they are operating in the Dutch city of Arnhem.

sim-al2
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 9
Joined: 27 Nov 2015 23:53

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by sim-al2 »

Trolleybuses are more expensive than diesel buses and also cost more to operate
IMO, they should cost more to purchase, but less to operate. Trolleybuses are restricted to certain roads and trolleybus roads should always cost more to build. In addition, with infrastructure maintenance on, those roads would have higher maintenance costs as well.

Something similar can be seen with some existing trainsets, where electric trains cost less for the same power output compared to diesel trains.

User avatar
GeekToo
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 961
Joined: 03 Jun 2007 22:22

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by GeekToo »

Hyronymus wrote:
12 Aug 2020 07:30
Nice suggestion, I'll see what I can add for the trolleybus they are operating in the Dutch city of Arnhem.
I already started searching:
https://www.trolleyclub.nl/wagenpark.php
https://www.trolleymaterieel-arnhem.nl/materieel.php

User avatar
Hyronymus
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 13221
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 10:36
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by Hyronymus »

GeekToo wrote:
16 Aug 2020 22:56
Hyronymus wrote:
12 Aug 2020 07:30
Nice suggestion, I'll see what I can add for the trolleybus they are operating in the Dutch city of Arnhem.
I already started searching:
https://www.trolleyclub.nl/wagenpark.php
https://www.trolleymaterieel-arnhem.nl/materieel.php
Nice. I'm waiting for access to the Google Drive spreadsheet from Kamnet.

User avatar
kamnet
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7291
Joined: 28 Sep 2009 17:15
Location: Eastern KY
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by kamnet »

Hyronymus wrote:
17 Aug 2020 06:00
GeekToo wrote:
16 Aug 2020 22:56
Hyronymus wrote:
12 Aug 2020 07:30
Nice suggestion, I'll see what I can add for the trolleybus they are operating in the Dutch city of Arnhem.
I already started searching:
https://www.trolleyclub.nl/wagenpark.php
https://www.trolleymaterieel-arnhem.nl/materieel.php
Nice. I'm waiting for access to the Google Drive spreadsheet from Kamnet.
If it was you who e-mailed me the other day, you have access now. :)

User avatar
Hyronymus
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 13221
Joined: 03 Dec 2002 10:36
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by Hyronymus »

kamnet wrote:
17 Aug 2020 09:33
If it was you who e-mailed me the other day, you have access now. :)
Sounds like me, seems I forgot to add a short introduction. Access works!

User avatar
2TallTyler
Traffic Manager
Traffic Manager
Posts: 162
Joined: 11 Aug 2019 18:15
Contact:

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by 2TallTyler »

sim-al2 wrote:
15 Aug 2020 23:01
Trolleybuses are more expensive than diesel buses and also cost more to operate
IMO, they should cost more to purchase, but less to operate. Trolleybuses are restricted to certain roads and trolleybus roads should always cost more to build. In addition, with infrastructure maintenance on, those roads would have higher maintenance costs as well.

Something similar can be seen with some existing trainsets, where electric trains cost less for the same power output compared to diesel trains.
This may be desirable from a gameplay standpoint, although it doesn’t match real-world data.

From this report comparing trolleybus to diesel costs in Central Europe:
We assume that a trolleybus is ca. 27% more expensive than a bus, but its lifetime is much longer – 20 years, compared with 12 years lifetime of a bus. Nevertheless maintenance of a bus is over 22% cheaper, than in case of a trolleybus, as longer lifetime requires more effort in servicing, especially at the later stage.
I’m not opposed to altering the economics to incentivize new types of gameplay, but figure we should have the facts to have an informed discussion. :)

sim-al2
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 9
Joined: 27 Nov 2015 23:53

Re: 2CC Trolleybus Set - Organization & Research

Post by sim-al2 »

Fuel costs are very important to this context, since the game does not have a way of costing energy consumption. The report you linked states that the diesel required for conventional buses costs several times as much as electricity costs for a trolleybus on the same route, though again the fixed infrastructure costs narrow this gap someone. Just like trains however, at higher frequencies the trolleybuses become much more economical to operate than diesel powered buses. Since the game lacks a way to simulate this nuance, IMO it's reasonable to give the trolleybuses a lower operating cost and of course require a larger initial investment in trolley lines, etc.

Post Reply

Return to “Graphics Development”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests