Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

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agnott
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by agnott »

The 'Kestrel' is one of the prettiest locos out there, it wouldn't look out of place today.

I know you love filling weird niches, so how about the RTV-31 as monorail passenger shuttle? Might need an addition to Tracks too... :lol:
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by piratescooby »

Excellent NG and Addons , another request ..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdRpPyU ... etroman%29
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by agnott »

Isn't the Class 139 already included?
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Electricfox »

If we're looking for niche designs and experimentals there's quite a range.

Steam:
GWR Dean Experimental Express tank locomotive - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index ... ress-tank/
GER Decapod - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GER_Class_A55
Midland Paget locomotive - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland_R ... locomotive
Kitson Still Steam/Diesel experimental - https://www.lner.info/locos/IC/kitson.php
NBC Reid-Macleod Turbine locomotive - https://www.lner.info/locos/Experimenta ... acLeod.php
Gresley W1 'Hush-Hush' - https://www.lner.info/locos/W/w1.php

Diesel:
GWR/BR 18000 'Kerosene Castle' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_18000
LMS Derby 80000 three coach railcar - http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/c/ca ... dex7.shtml
BR Class 124 'Transpennine express' - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_124
BR Class 128 Parcels DMU - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_128
BR 6000hp D0D0 - https://twitter.com/garethdennis/status ... 2686682114 https://twitter.com/BTF_Films/status/13 ... 6416356354

Electric:
GWR/BR 18100 converted to 25kw overhead for testing - http://silverfoxmodels.co.uk/e1000-e200 ... n-vickers/
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by piratescooby »

agnott wrote: 08 Feb 2021 11:51 Isn't the Class 139 already included?
Found her thanks.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Whitefang »

After the Lady of the Lake, there isn't really another fast passenger locomotive available until the 115 class 30 years later. Could something like the Stirling Singles or the Gladstones be added to fill the gap? The Webb compounds also fit, and are really weird and interesting I think.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Rezot »

Whitefang wrote: 09 Feb 2021 04:43 After the Lady of the Lake, there isn't really another fast passenger locomotive available until the 115 class 30 years later. Could something like the Stirling Singles or the Gladstones be added to fill the gap? The Webb compounds also fit, and are really weird and interesting I think.

Ooh! Good Point!
I must admit I'd thought there was a dearth of machines as alternatives to the Lady! Seconding the ideas proposed by Whitefang, also, just to put in my two cents worth of ideas for locos between the Lady of the Lake (1859) and Spinner (1896)

LNWR "Precursor/Precedent/Improved Precedent" 2-4-0 (1874) - Slightly more powerful, long lived passenger locomotives with the last bowing out in the early 30s. Represented in preservation by "Hardwicke"
Midland "158 Class" 2-4-0 (1860) - Matthew Kirtley's handsome, if diminutive, 2-4-0 design that again survived into the early 1930's. Represented in preservation by "158A" which actually has the tender off of a 700 class with it.
LSWR Beattie Well Tank 2-4-0WT (1863) - Icononic, long lived suburban tanks with two in preservation.
L&YR Barton Wright 4-4-0 (1880) - Handsome early Express Passenger 4-4-0 which would make a solid interim step between the Lady & Spinner
Highland Railway "Skye Bogie" 4-4-0 (1882) - Mixed Traffic 4-4-0s from the Kyle of Localsh Line

As an aside, it does amuse me to have Midland and the LNWR side by side like this as they kind of represent the opposite poles of locomotive identification policy. The Midland just numbered almost everything whilst Crewe seems to have gone with whatever the designer saw out the window at the time...
Also, apologies for the ex-LMS bias of the above.. we all have our weaknesses ;-)

Finally.. thanks again for this fun set, hope you don't mind the suggestion spam. Kind of enjoying stretching my rail nerd wings as much as anything else... ;-)
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Timberwolf »

I have to admit, with the long lists I tend to give them a quick scan, see if anything makes me think "oh yes, I'd forgotten about that" and leave it there. The suggestions which are most useful are from people who are clearly currently in a game and finding a gap which I know needs to be filled - like the 30 years between express loco (I never manage to have a developed enough passenger network at that point in the 1800s!). And sometimes the same happens accidentally, with me going, "oh yes, the Decapod would let me extend 'slow heavy freight' another 10-15 years earlier into the game".

Also things which are mentioned over a period of time by a few different people feel more like they're going to get used in game, the DBSO is a good example.

The big challenge with early locomotives is finding good primary sources on speed, tractive effort, and dimensions as originally built. Imagine you're trying to work out the performance of various models of small car by asking only 17-18 year olds who've just passed their test, and you're juggling anecdotal reports of "2001 Punto will do 125mph, fact" on one hand against "had a brand new Yaris as a hire car and it was hopeless, couldn't get past 75mph" on the other and you're in pretty much the same place as trying to work out how fast a loco could actually go given a long and straight piece of track. (There's at least one case where Wikipedia lists "top speed" of a locomotive as the maximum line speed in preservation!)

I feel I'm going a bit into work mode here, but what would be interesting to know is... what is the one most important thing you'd add to the set? Why? Does it give players new gameplay options, and what are they? Parcel units earlier than the Class 325 are an interesting option here, pushing the dedicated mail unit up to the 1960s adds more options here and then you have the added question of what to do as they reach obsolescence... go back to loco-hauled trains, electrify to use the 325, or soldier on against increasingly painful running costs?
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by WWW »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 12:04 ...
Not a dig, but I'd love to see the latest set of content pushed up to github so I can take a stab at some changes while I have the systems compiling. I have a (short) list of niggles from people that I'd like to address, mostly introduction date controversies and the odd erzatz-wagen (Mk2 BG might need to be hidden behind a parameter, dbso/dvt should maybe carry a bit of mail). I really need to play a full game again to see where the gaps remain in terms of content.

From a technical standpoint the pack is excellent, really raises the bar and it's amazing how much content you've managed to deliver.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Timberwolf »

Oh... right... yes... oops.

Image

A few of those might be worth porting upstream, certainly mail capacity for DVTs and any incorrect introduction dates. Would you be so good as to submit some PRs for the things you fix? (Ideally separated by theme, I'm not keen on adding parameters but I'd happily merge fixes for incorrect stats or more functionality)
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Timberwolf »

andythenorth wrote: 12 Feb 2021 18:04
Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 12:04what is the one most important thing you'd add to the set?
Torpedo Wagon!
I'm kinda disappointed it's not "Cartic with a full cargo of Austin 1300s", to be honest.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Whitefang »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 12:04 I have to admit, with the long lists I tend to give them a quick scan, see if anything makes me think "oh yes, I'd forgotten about that" and leave it there. The suggestions which are most useful are from people who are clearly currently in a game and finding a gap which I know needs to be filled - like the 30 years between express loco (I never manage to have a developed enough passenger network at that point in the 1800s!). And sometimes the same happens accidentally, with me going, "oh yes, the Decapod would let me extend 'slow heavy freight' another 10-15 years earlier into the game".

Also things which are mentioned over a period of time by a few different people feel more like they're going to get used in game, the DBSO is a good example.

The big challenge with early locomotives is finding good primary sources on speed, tractive effort, and dimensions as originally built. Imagine you're trying to work out the performance of various models of small car by asking only 17-18 year olds who've just passed their test, and you're juggling anecdotal reports of "2001 Punto will do 125mph, fact" on one hand against "had a brand new Yaris as a hire car and it was hopeless, couldn't get past 75mph" on the other and you're in pretty much the same place as trying to work out how fast a loco could actually go given a long and straight piece of track. (There's at least one case where Wikipedia lists "top speed" of a locomotive as the maximum line speed in preservation!)

I feel I'm going a bit into work mode here, but what would be interesting to know is... what is the one most important thing you'd add to the set? Why? Does it give players new gameplay options, and what are they? Parcel units earlier than the Class 325 are an interesting option here, pushing the dedicated mail unit up to the 1960s adds more options here and then you have the added question of what to do as they reach obsolescence... go back to loco-hauled trains, electrify to use the 325, or soldier on against increasingly painful running costs?
If I had to pick one, I'd choose the Stirling Singles. Their introduction date is almost directly between that of the Lady of the Lake and the 115s. I started a game in the 1880's recently, so having only the 2-2-2s meant lots of double heading. Unfortunately the stats on the wikipedia page are largely from 2 secondary sources, so no idea how accurate they are. Assuming they're accurate, it would put their performance in between the 2-2-2s and the 115s, but its understandable if you wouldn't want to use them.

I found a pdf of a part of a book which talks about early compound locomotives, which mentions the tractive effort and indicated horsepower for the LNWR Dreadnought compounds. Unfortunately, it does not mention the top speed. Also the intro date of those specific locomotives is a bit close to the 115s. I suppose the top speed could be fudged to make it a slightly slower but more powerful alternative to the single-wheelers, but dunno how useful that would be.

https://www.icevirtuallibrary.com/doi/p ... 1889.20788
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by andythenorth »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 20:27 I'm kinda disappointed it's not "Cartic with a full cargo of Austin 1300s", to be honest.
I think "Plasser and Theurer GPC 12t crane" would be ahead of that.

45 year lifespan, self-propelled, and I'll never draw it in pixels :P
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by WWW »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 20:26 Would you be so good as to submit some PRs for the things you fix? (Ideally separated by theme, I'm not keen on adding parameters but I'd happily merge fixes for incorrect stats or more functionality)
It would be my pleasure.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Timberwolf »

I found a bit of time to draw stuff so a little update for the addon set...

Image

The Stirling Single followed by Ivatt's "Klondyke" now means a nice progression of express locomotives through the late 19th century, maybe something should also get introduced between the GWR Star Class and the absolute glut of express locomotives from the early 1920s but it's hardly an urgent need.

Class 128 is in, and I also added some torpedo cars as a high density (but also rather inflexible) means of carrying metals around. DBSO can also be refit to carry a small quantity of mail if so desired - the same logic will carry through to the DVT next time I rebuild the main set.
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Captain Rand »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 20:27 ..........."Cartic with a full cargo of Austin 1300s".........
Well, now that you mention it....
:twisted:
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by PEPSprinterPacer »

Timberwolf wrote: 12 Feb 2021 12:04 I have to admit, with the long lists I tend to give them a quick scan, see if anything makes me think "oh yes, I'd forgotten about that" and leave it there. The suggestions which are most useful are from people who are clearly currently in a game and finding a gap which I know needs to be filled - like the 30 years between express loco (I never manage to have a developed enough passenger network at that point in the 1800s!). And sometimes the same happens accidentally, with me going, "oh yes, the Decapod would let me extend 'slow heavy freight' another 10-15 years earlier into the game".

Also things which are mentioned over a period of time by a few different people feel more like they're going to get used in game, the DBSO is a good example.

The big challenge with early locomotives is finding good primary sources on speed, tractive effort, and dimensions as originally built. Imagine you're trying to work out the performance of various models of small car by asking only 17-18 year olds who've just passed their test, and you're juggling anecdotal reports of "2001 Punto will do 125mph, fact" on one hand against "had a brand new Yaris as a hire car and it was hopeless, couldn't get past 75mph" on the other and you're in pretty much the same place as trying to work out how fast a loco could actually go given a long and straight piece of track. (There's at least one case where Wikipedia lists "top speed" of a locomotive as the maximum line speed in preservation!)

I feel I'm going a bit into work mode here, but what would be interesting to know is... what is the one most important thing you'd add to the set? Why? Does it give players new gameplay options, and what are they? Parcel units earlier than the Class 325 are an interesting option here, pushing the dedicated mail unit up to the 1960s adds more options here and then you have the added question of what to do as they reach obsolescence... go back to loco-hauled trains, electrify to use the 325, or soldier on against increasingly painful running costs?
a Class 185 for mid 2000s middle-speed DMUs
Only ever been on a 185 and 144 023!
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Re: Timberwolf's UK.... trains?

Post by Timberwolf »

A little more time spent in the locomotive works today...

Image

A brace of Claughton-like designs with the LNWR Claughton, Robinson 9P and Robinson 9Q providing a bit more heft to the early 1920s for addon set users. GER's Decapod also brings heavy freight a little earlier - once I'd recovered enough from my initial "wait... it's a tank??" to draw it.

The Kerosene Castle had originally been on my list for the same session that provided the Falcon and Kestrel, and it finally makes a belated debut. And there's a 185 which is a little overlappy with the Turbostar in terms of specs, but I really liked that TransPennine Express livery. I'm amazed for all the stick I get about doing a set in 2x zoom that nobody ever picks up on my continued subtle attempts to make the hated purple company colour a thing...

One interesting problem with these prototypes and lesser used locomotives is trying to avoid the effect that UKRS2 suffered from when adding interesting could-have-beens, which is the specifications being so superior and the real-world difficulties being so difficult to convincingly model in-game that you end up using NER EE1s on everything for several decades because nothing can compete with them stats-wise. I'm putting a lot of hope into the "age related running costs" mechanic here, by giving some of them unappealingly short lifespans to emulate the short-lived prototype status.

There's also a new service release of the main Trains set - nothing too exciting to note, only a few general fixes and improvements in compatibility for other rail sets.
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