SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

McZapkie wrote:Some my remarks after multiplayer session:

1. Textile mill should treat wool and fibres as alternatives, not conjunction, same for sand/clay for brick works or stone/clay for cement plant.

2. it is strange, that Machine Shop produce BDMT from metal and petrol. I miss something like ENSP (or let say, machinery/vehicles), they would be sent to mines to increase crew level (basic production without passengers, normal with passengers, overtime with passengers and machinery).

3. Manpower for sand pits does not work fine in case of cargodist. It should be used only for industry with one resource produced (for example coal/ore mine), in case of quarry/dredging site, ENSP would be nice to increase production if stockpiled.

4. Some industries should not require all inputs, for example paper mill should produce paper if any wood is delivered, but increase production rate if clay/chemicals are delivered (similar, like supplies for fishing harbour or food processor, it works perfectly).

5. Not sure, what for are both scrap yards and scrap merchants, or cereal/arable farm?

Basically this set is awesome, is slightly harder than its parent FIRS, but not such insane as ECS is.
1. In v1.2, wool is gone and there's just fibres. That will solve that problem. There is another change for textile mills - to be announced later. I accept there are issues with the brickworks and cement plant but haven't yet decided what to do. I will keep your suggestions in mind.

2. That's a hang-over from firs that I haven't yet dealt with. v1.2 is where I'm changing industries around. At the moment petrol is produced so I need to use it somewhere. The machine shop is a bit of an oddity in this set at the moment.

3. I'm still contemplating splitting quarries into stone quarries and sand pits (one product each). At the moment quarries with 2 products are a problem. Cargodist and manpower will probably conflict.

4. But that's what firs does and this set is intended to require most raw materials in stock to function. A way to do it is to designate one cargo as 'optional' as I do with some industries when supplies are the optional cargo. Industries needing 3 raw materials are hard to get going...still I've had a steel mill with stockpiles of 600+, 999, 999 that churns out a lot of metal, but I accept your point. I'll see what I can do, I might be able to make it work better.

5. In the early days I added a cereal farm to boost grain production. I later added a scrap merchants as I liked the idea. I accept that there's a lot of duplication there. However, most production levels are fairly low so more sources are generally beneficial. I may tweak scrap yards a bit.

There are some more industry-related changes I might make but I haven't yet decided exactly what to do. Suggestions are still welcome.

Thanks for the kind comments. It's nice to know that someone is playing this. The low production levels do make it more of a challenge.

What do you think of the ports/bulk terminals?

It's also fun when a cargo dries up and you don't notice. I had an aluminium plant generating LOTS of metal but the bauxite mines closed down (and I didn't think about the consequences). Suddenly I had a stack of large trains waiting for metal...and that had knock-on effects at the metal fab plant that had a queue of goods trucks doing nothing. :(
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by GarryG »

McZapkie wrote:At the moment petrol is produced so I need to use it somewhere.
Finding a use for Petrol not easy so curiosity got to me and I rang a Oil Refinery pretended I doing research for my kids school project ask where does fuel get delivered to.

Some of these were: Fuel Depots, Open Cut Coal Mines, Companies that had their own transport, Airports (fuel for planes), Locomotive Depots, Bus Depots, farms and Freight Terminals were some they mentioned.

I asked more about the Freight Terminals .. they say large ones where many trucks would arrive with cargos and pick up more could also refuel at these places. Wonder if a new Industry could be made for the game. Act a bit like a inland Bulk Terminal. Can deliver up to 3 cargos here including petrol and produce 2 types.

Hope that gives you some ideas.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

Thanks. I've been thinking about how to use petrol (in some meaningful way within the game). Other than petrol stations and for export (I use both methods), then there is currently just the machine shop as an industry that uses petrol to make something, however as I've changed the set so much, building materials does seem to be a 'bad' product (bad, as in is doesn't seem related to the input of petrol).

In an earlier incarnation of SPI, I did try splitting petrol and chemicals into separate industries (chemicals were made from oil at a chemical plant). That gave the player more control over what was mad, but I went back to an oil refinery making 50-50 chemicals-petrol.

Regarding the paper mill, having it producing paper from just wood seems like a good idea so I'll change it so it can make paper at the basic level with just wood.

I'll also make changes with the brickworks and cement plant but I'm not yet sure what changes those might be... I might combine them into one industry or try to make them offer a basic production system where they don't need all raw materials to make something.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by McZapkie »

3iff wrote: 4. But that's what firs does and this set is intended to require most raw materials in stock to function. A way to do it is to designate one cargo as 'optional' as I do with some industries when supplies are the optional cargo.
It is exactly what I meant - main cargo used for production, additional cargo used for production boost but not for production itself.
It is not possible to produce paper from chemicals or clay, but conversion from wood pulp to paper is much easier with these add-ons.
3iff wrote: Industries needing 3 raw materials are hard to get going...
Usually two of them can be treated alternatively, for example (scrap || ore) && coal or (bauxites || scrap) && chemicals
3iff wrote: What do you think of the ports/bulk terminals?
I'm not sure how it works - is export production depended on import, or it is just independent black hole/generator.
3iff wrote: It's also fun when a cargo dries up and you don't notice.
Fortunately you know resources, and can prepare spare link in advance. Usually I'm using transfer order from another raw source.
Thanks for manpower, it is possible to tune up production, to make it last longer or to make soft transition from one source to another.

3iff wrote: In an earlier incarnation of SPI, I did try splitting petrol and chemicals into separate industries (chemicals were made from oil at a chemical plant). That gave the player more control over what was mad, but I went back to an oil refinery making 50-50 chemicals-petrol.
I had another idea - to split chemicals into inorganic chemicals (CHEM: caustics, acids etc) and refined products (RFPR).
First one would be produced by lime kiln and bulk terminal, the other ones by refinery and biorefinery.
Chemicals can be used in aluminium plant, paper mill, glass works, whereas refined products in lumber mill, metal workshop,
additionally both refined and chemicals in chemical plant to produce goods and supplies.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

MacZapkie wrote:I'm not sure how it works (ports)- is export production depended on import, or it is just independent black hole/generator.
Sometimes writing a "readme" is a waste of time! :wink: They produce a trickle of imports regardless. When you deliver the cargos the port or terminal require, imports are boosted. Stockpiles apply here too.
MacZapkie wrote:(industries with 3 inputs) Usually two of them can be treated alternatively, for example (scrap || ore) && coal or (bauxites || scrap) && chemicals.
I'm trying to see it how I have it coded. It would be really messy having to check (scrap || ore).

As part of this, some industries are now designated as 'large' where they effectively require all 3 raw materials (or can maybe do basic production with just 2). Most other industries are 'small' where there are only 2 raw materials and maybe one is non-essential, mostly anything using supplies. That tends to minimise the problems getting an industry going.


Interesting idea about the chemicals/refined products. This needs a bit of thought. Thanks again for the suggestions and ideas.

Glad you like the manpower option. I take it it's working well?
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by McZapkie »

3iff wrote:I'm trying to see it how I have it coded. It would be really messy having to check (scrap || ore).
Just check sum of both cargoes waiting? I cannot help, because I don't know where source code is available.

If talking about manpower - one important note - without any cargo transported, production should stay idle.
Accidentally placed bus stop near mine, half of resources wasted before I realised that is is working at overtime.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

Source for v1.1 is on the "graphics releases" page 1, post 1.
Mczapkie wrote:If talking about manpower - one important note - without any cargo transported, production should stay idle.
Due to the very low (by some standards) production levels, I want there to be a trickle of production that can be boosted by adding manpower...however, I'll have a look at that.
Mczapkie wrote:Accidentally placed bus stop near mine, half of resources wasted before I realised that is is working at overtime.
Ha ha ha, but easily done.

While changing the paper mill to produce with just wood I found a few bugs, nothing serious, but thanks.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

It's been a while since SPI 1.1 hit the streets. Since then I've been working on and off towards SPI 1.2. So far there have been 105 different versions with features added, changed, bugs squished and so on.
The new version is significantly different from the last version with a host of options to allow far better customisation.

It's now approaching the time for a release but I still have some testing to do. In the meantime, I have a teaser with a list of the new features.

Comments and suggestion are welcome and I hope to have SPI 1.2 ready within a few weeks.

I'll try and sort out some screenshots when I get time.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

SPI v1.2 has been released.

It's available at bananas or via the graphics releases forum where the source is also included.
viewtopic.php?f=67&t=73230

Comments and problems here please.

I've just remembered that I added a cannery (fruit and metal makes food) but it has not been activated in the game...so don't be surprised if you can't find it. It was a recent industry addition but I've never actually used it yet so it could well be buggy anyway!
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by MrRB »

Hi 3iff,

First of all, great work making SPI.

I really like playing with it. I like the fact, that mines/oil wells etc. can actually be finite, that production is not so ridiculously high as with the regular FIRS and that you can set the payment rate, so you can make the game more challenging.

However, I've stopped using it (even 1.2), mainly because of point 2, that McZapkie made:

"2. it is strange, that Machine Shop produce BDMT from metal and petrol. I miss something like ENSP (or let say, machinery/vehicles), they would be sent to mines to increase crew level (basic production without passengers, normal with passengers, overtime with passengers and machinery)."

I really miss the engineering supplies and farm supplies and find it pretty weird that there are dead ends in the supply chain at for example the fertilizer plant, that obviously should have it's product delivered at farms. Or machinery shops that deliver machines (engineering/farm supplies) to farms, mines, woodland, oil wells etc.

I totally liked his proposal to do it this way:
Basic production without passengers, normal with passengers, overtime with passengers and machinery


Further I agree with actually all the points McZapkie made.
One in particular I'd like to mention. I still miss it in 1.2 (next to point 2 above). It is the fact that some products should be optional, to increase production, but not to generate production by themselves. Like for instance the papermill example that you both mentioned above.

Thanks for everything and I really hope these things will be picked up in the following version.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

Actually, I've added farm and engineering supplies back into the game. I've found a way of doing it in keeping with the production system and in a way I like.

I'm disappearing from the internet for a while fairly soon, nothing serious, just losing internet access...so there's a chance I can release an early version of SPI 1.3 before then. Oh, a penalty is that we lose petrol but I've always found that an awkward cargo to use.

Thanks for the post, there are so few posts here (mainly none) that I've no idea if anyone is even using this newgrf.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by Sunmannus »

3iff wrote:.
Thanks for the post, there are so few posts here (mainly none) that I've no idea if anyone is even using this newgrf.

A few posts, indeed. But surely a lot of people, like me, keeping track of this thread and your work.
Keep the good work bro!
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

I've rush-released SPI 1.3, now with added farm and engineering supplies. Check bananas for the new grf which will require starting a new game.

The changes (there are a lot) are listed in the release thread.

I'm temporarily disappearing from the internet in about 4 weeks so if there are any problems, I need to know straight away.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by Auge »

Hello

While testing SPI 1.3 an error (?) came up. The woodlands doesn't accept passengers (as crew). I tested it with a bus stop and did not found a single passenger accepting tile. I don't know, if it is due my parameter settings or if it is a bug, so I'm reporting it. I append a screenshot with the parameter settings.

"An" = "on", "Aus" = "off"
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

Woodlands don't accept passengers (crew). Perhaps they should but currently they don't.

It's currently a design feature but thanks for reporting it. I'll see what I can do.

Oh, and before someone says...woodlands don't accept engineering supplies, and that is intended.

-------------

Strange, the crew code is there after all. If it works then it's a very easy fix. Stay tuned.

-------------

Ok, there will very soon be a new version on bananas with added crew -> woodland. Version 1.31 which should be compatible with existing games (I hope). It may be the case that existing woodlands won't accept passengers but new ones will...or just start a new game.

Bananas now refreshed with the new version...have fun.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by MrRB »

3iff wrote:Actually, I've added farm and engineering supplies back into the game. I've found a way of doing it in keeping with the production system and in a way I like.

I'm disappearing from the internet for a while fairly soon, nothing serious, just losing internet access...so there's a chance I can release an early version of SPI 1.3 before then. Oh, a penalty is that we lose petrol but I've always found that an awkward cargo to use.

Thanks for the post, there are so few posts here (mainly none) that I've no idea if anyone is even using this newgrf.

Thanks for the fast reply. Thanks for finding a way to integrate farm and engineering supplies.

However (and I'm so sorry to nag :( ), why will petrol be at the mercy of said supplies? I do like petrol. I find it pretty logical to have it transported to machine shops, petrol stations/cities, maybe even mines/farms (where else would the heavy machinery work on...).

Plus, what would the refinery produce? Just chemicals... :? ?


I hope I'm not to critical, it's not my intention. I'd just like to think along with you guys to have SPI be a killing addition to OTTD. As it sure has the potential to be!
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by MrRB »

3iff wrote:Woodlands don't accept passengers (crew). Perhaps they should but currently they don't.

It's currently a design feature but thanks for reporting it. I'll see what I can do.

Oh, and before someone says...woodlands don't accept engineering supplies, and that is intended.

-------------

Strange, the crew code is there after all. If it works then it's a very easy fix. Stay tuned.

-------------

Ok, there will very soon be a new version on bananas with added crew -> woodland. Version 1.31 which should be compatible with existing games (I hope). It may be the case that existing woodlands won't accept passengers but new ones will...or just start a new game.

Bananas now refreshed with the new version...have fun.

3iff, one more question.

Why is woodland not accepting engineering supplies intented?

Thanks for uploading 1.31 :D
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

Thanks for the comments, it's nice to hear that someone is using this.

I always found petrol annoying, having few places to take it, while chemicals were always in demand at so many industries. I decided to eliminate petrol (I think that leaves me with one spare cargo slot). The oil refinery does make just chemicals and it does leave the petrol station a bit cut adrift as it doesn't now accept petrol...it may get renamed in a future version.

A lot of this is due to to releasing v1.3 way earlier than I intended, the incubation period is about 6-12 months for a new version. In that time I would have playtested enough to see if I liked the changes.

At the moment, development is quite rapid, I've just added 2 new mini economies but I won't be releasing a new version any time soon...and I'm losing my internet access in a few weeks so until I get myself sorted out I won't have access to this forum.

I decided woodland wouldn't have engineering supplies as a woodland is designed to be cleared quickly. It has a short life (by design) and setting up ENSP deliveries would not really be cost effective. I could add them but I don't see the point, so it'll probably be staying as it is.

SPI has turned into a version of FIRS that I'm happy with, despite my constant changes and 'improvements'. There's nothing to stop you from taking the source and making changes of your own...that's how I got started. You'd find that designing an industry set is more complex than it appears.

It's possible that petrol may return. I could have another industry that converts oil into petrol so that players can choose which products they wish to make... and cargos do have a chance of being resurrected! Hmmm, I might think about that possibility.
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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by GarryG »

Hi 3iff, hope your not off line for to long when you lose internet. While no internet still have computer usage to continue programming and playing the game.

Much thanks to you for being my teacher to design my own industry set AuzInd160 and that ventured to the object sets.

Cheers pal

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Re: SPI -Stockpiled Industries - Development thread

Post by 3iff »

I've found a bug where crew and ENSP don't work properly together, and that some mines won't accept passengers even though they should (due to tiles only accepting 4/8 passengers).

I think I've fixed it now and I should be able to post an update soon.

As an added bonus, you will be getting access to 3 new mini-industry sets.

Has anyone found any other bugs? Report them now so I can fix them before I do the update.

I knew an early release of v1.3 would be trouble :? This wouldn't have happened if I had done more testing!
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