[OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Nightly Betas Now Released

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Voyager One
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

kamnet wrote:On my oldest child's first day, she cried and begged me to never leave.
Pretty much the same. :lol:

... but after all, he's been satisfied with his first day. We'll see today when they'll have to stay longer. :lol:


EDIT: Managed to do something today...
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by McZapkie »

I'm impressed how fast you are drawing, I' deliberating about each pixel and still have just a jar of dirt.

Are horse trams considered (eGRVTS have no option to include horse trams and exlude non-horse ones).

I have suggestion about trams parameters.
For urban transport there are important two factors: huge capacity and fast passenger throughput.
Loading speed should be adjusted to tram capacity, otherwise large tram would sit much longer than two small ones.
I suggest to use number of door wings to calculate loading speed.
In my poltrams set I'm using following formula:

Code: Select all

#define get_loading_speed(doorwings, loweredfloor) doorwings*2+loweredfloor/15  
//number of door wings, percent of lowered floor
Of course it can be simplified, but I want to give bonus for modern and expensive trams.

another issue is capacity. Calculating both seated+standing places is very good feature for urban transport,
however to avoid misuse of trams, those with huge number of standing should have increased cargo aging.

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

McZapkie wrote:Are horse trams considered
How should I answer this? :lol: Considered - yes. Will they be actually included - I don't know yet. :wink:
McZapkie wrote:Loading speed should be adjusted to tram capacity
Actually, we've already solved this issue - number of doors. If you take a look at that tracking table we have, there is a column called PDWE - Passenger Door Width Equivalent. Each 1-person door adds 1 to the total score, the higher the score, the faster the loading. And this is actually how it works IRL too.
McZapkie wrote:Calculating both seated+standing places is very good feature for urban transport... misuse of trams
I'm not really worried about misuse of trams. We are replicating real trams and their real capacities. Most other vehicle sets do the same and I think they will be pretty balanced.

Also, you must keep in mind a few other facts as examples:
- metro vehicles from the 2cc trainset also have seating+standing capacities and their numbers are considerably higher than we have here;
- trams are slow, therefore you get a lower payment rate;
- connected with the above slowness, trams aren't adapt for longer distances;
- buses (e.g. George's Long Vehicles) may have a smaller capacity but they are in general faster and are less subject to traffic jams as they can go around different streets in a city while trams must stay on tracks;
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by kamnet »

Voyager One wrote:
McZapkie wrote:Are horse trams considered
How should I answer this? :lol: Considered - yes. Will they be actually included - I don't know yet. :wink:
We talked about it last week, the feeling right now is that there is interest, but we may not include them in this release. I'm researching more info.
Voyager One wrote:
McZapkie wrote:Calculating both seated+standing places is very good feature for urban transport... misuse of trams
I'm not really worried about misuse of trams. We are replicating real trams and their real capacities. Most other vehicle sets do the same and I think they will be pretty balanced.
Part of my motivation for putting together this set was the fact that trams in OpenTTD are rarely effective especially in later games, and you have players who resort to either spamming cities with buses, or trying to rip out infrastructure to expand railroad lines and stations. In today's world, trams and lightrail are faster and more powerful than in decades past, and they transport hundreds of people at a time. It's easier to install their infrastructure, either running in the street or on their own right-of-way. Modern trams and lightrail are a vital link to moving people within the city to the areas where larger stations are or can be built. I wanted OpenTTD to be able to reflect this. Now that OpenTTD supports CargoDist, 2CC|Trams is going to be a significant upgrade in complex passenger networking.

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by McZapkie »

Voyager One wrote: I'm not really worried about misuse of trams. We are replicating real trams and their real capacities. Most other vehicle sets do the same and I think they will be pretty balanced.
If you are replicating real trams, such parameters like travelling comfort should also be replicated.
For example lets compare Gothenburg MB01 and Milan ATM Class 1500 - the first one have smaller capacity and low passenger throughput.
If you define cargo aging related to sitting to total places ratio, you would not only better balance these two trams, but also create two cars for two niches:
low passenger streams or interurban operation vs heavily overloaded urban traffic
Voyager One wrote:- connected with the above slowness, trams aren't adapt for longer distances;
-trams must stay on tracks;
80km/h for modern trams is not very slow, and trams line eat only one, tile without bulldozing everything.
Additionally, tram track can be protected by one-way streets.
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Eddi »

not trying to talk into your set too much, but warning you about a potential mistake: the GermanRV set has "realistic capacities" for the trams, but it did not correctly map those capacities to a length scale, so you end up with one tram carrying 120 passengers on a full tile, and another tram carrying 60 passengers for a full tile. you might want to avoid this by making sure that the "realistic" length correlates with the ingame length.
You might not exactly be interested in Ferion, but if you are, have fun :)

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

Eddi wrote:you might want to avoid this by making sure that the "realistic" length correlates with the ingame length.
I'm doing my best to draw things as realistically possible, lenght-wise speaking. Unfortunately some things don't really look nice in their "real" size so I tweak them a bit, but that's a lesser evil IMO.

... and speaking of todays loot...
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

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EDIT:
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by te_lanus »

Voyager One wrote:...
Very nicely done,

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

Last ones for today... enough is enough... :lol:
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by 1stwizard »

It seems Twin cities LRT is missing. Please through wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_(Minnesota)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Green_Line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METRO_Blue_Line
Though there are two lines, cars are shared.
This is photo from wiki: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... e_2014.jpg

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

1stwizard wrote:It seems Twin cities LRT is missing
Missing? What do you mean? We do have the Flexity Swift (London) and the S70/Avanto (Houston)...
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by 1stwizard »

Twin cities LRT cars are belongs to Flexity Swift family but it is different model from London's as Boeing 737-100 and 200 are different (Of course, livery as well). I checked tracking table and found it is not in list. If our passionate 2cc Tram grf makers add this in working list, it will be great grateful :)

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by kamnet »

One of the things that we are taking into consideration with this set is how frequently new vehicles are introduced and where are they introduced. Bombardier has been quite successful in marketing and releasing their products. Unfortunately they've done so in a period of a few years and mostly concentrated in Europe and North America, where we already have a lot of other vehicles during that period and regions. If you check the tracking table's "Unused" list you'll see several more listed that we initially included for consideration.

To be honest Bombardier has made so many Flexity-brand vehicles in such a short period of time that you could make your own separate set of them.

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Voyager One »

1stwizard wrote:Twin cities LRT cars are belongs to Flexity Swift family but it is different model from London's as Boeing 737-100 and 200 are different (Of course, livery as well). I checked tracking table and found it is not in list. If our passionate 2cc Tram grf makers add this in working list, it will be great grateful
If we start doing it like this, we'll end up with 1000 trams.

Livery is also not a "benchmark" since I'm drawing them in 2cc and kind of stlyling each livery, not making it exactly as real or we would end up with dozens of vehicles that could not be distinticted one from another.

All in all, let me conclude in this way: "no" for now but it's not a definite "no" because once we make a nice set, we could decide to change/add some features and these suggestions could turn out to be more than welcome. :wink:
---

Now, someone will say that these below are all the same and that I'm doing exactly the opposite from what I've said above. However, these differ in stats significantly enough to be included all.
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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by kamnet »

There's also a significant amount of time between the T2 and T4, and the K4 is an articulated tram rather than single car.

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Re: [OTTD] 2CC|Trams - Development Discussion

Post by Sylf »

I don't know what your tracking table looks like. Can you possibly include this Botchan Ressha? It would make a nice early steamer tram for Asian region.

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