Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

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andreasaspenberg
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i got an idea regarding the doom buggy: you should add a doom buggy mark 2 which is faster and that takes more. they are initially faster than the trucks but, the trucks gets faster later on which makes them less useful. adding additional versions of them means that they can be used throughout the game rather than just at the start. i have found one issue: towns is too close to each others. that might prevent certain towns from getting big enough to become self sustained. i had to actually destroy parts of one city to make another one self sustained.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Hi all :)

After a short break to go enjoy some nice sunshine (also Factorio...) I've done a little work to Wasteland again and am ready to release alpha 7.

Nothing too showstopping this time around, the "big" addition is two new industries which (finally) act as end-game or alternate delivery locations for electricity and building materials. I decided not to try extending the industry chains out further to make them do something sensible, as I think that would require a much more complex economy overall, so for now they are just simple black hole industries you dump cargo into. The other climates will get cool stuff like robot factories and whatnot to make use of the more advanced materials, but that will come later ;)

I also finally tackled the issue of getting visible cargo sprites to work with the broad gauge wagons, so that should hopefully be working now. Other minor things include the addition of a fence around the Sand Quarry and Coal Mine industries to help define their borders more clearly, splitting the electricity carrier into two vehicles, plus the changes discussed previously in this post.

This version should be compatible with the previous alpha, and as always if you encounter any new issues please do let me know. Enjoy :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

eh, not good. the new alpha does not work at all. it refuses to work because it finds a non existing industry set. i have no other industry sets. it reacts to the manual industries mod. i always use that mod to access the default inustries. the wasteland industries never produces enough on their own so, without manual industries running as well, wasteland is just broken.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Taschi »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 05 Jun 2021 17:03 eh, not good. the new alpha does not work at all. it refuses to work because it finds a non existing industry set. i have no other industry sets. it reacts to the manual industries mod. i always use that mod to access the default inustries. the wasteland industries never produces enough on their own so, without manual industries running as well, wasteland is just broken.
Given your history of reporting "bugs" that turned out to be mistakes on your part, maybe you should refrain from using terms like "does not work at all".

(I can confirm that version 0.7.0 does, in fact, work.)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 05 Jun 2021 17:03 i have no other industry sets. it reacts to the manual industries mod.
That is, by it's very name, an industry set :roll:

I tried the manual industries NewGRF(s) personally, and the big problem is that there are 7,000 different ways to configure it, of which seemingly 6,999 break Wasteland (and when I say "break", I mean actually break, as in cargoes and industries do not function). Maybe you found the one configuration which appears to work, but I can assure you it is not the way Wasteland is intended to be played. In this case it is simply easier and better to disable it, than to allow a most-likely broken game.

I've tried to be as lenient as is reasonable when it comes to using other GRFs, but it's just unavoidable that almost anything which modifies industries or cargoes will cause major issues with playability. Previous versions did no compatibility checks which allowed such broken combinations, relying on the user to determine whether something works or not, but that doesn't mean it was working correctly. Apologies if this breaks the gameplay for you, but it's something which should have been done from the beginning :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

manual industries caused no issues when i used it, no matter what configuration i used. nothing broke in any of my playthroughs. the version i use is manual industries II(nightly-r5). that causes absolutely no issues. please make wasteland compatible with that particular version. it have after all been tested and confirmed to work perfectly.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 05 Jun 2021 19:46 it have after all been tested and confirmed to work perfectly.
You and I have very different ideas of "working perfectly" ;)

Unnamed, 2277-01-01.png
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It even says in the GRF description that it is not compatible with other industry sets, specifically for this reason.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

the industries added with manual industries produces other things than what they normally do, because wasteland affects the industries. manual industries however, does not affect the industries present as part of wasteland. it only adds cheaper ways to produce cargoes. with your extreme costs and very low outputs, getting enough cargo to transport is impossible. i tried playing wastland without any grfs and it was impossible. it made me uninstall the game and delete all content.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Taschi »

Have you considered that maybe harsh scarcity of products is kind of the point of a wasteland mod?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by BermudaTri »

So first of all I haven't looked at this in a few months and I love all the updates! Especially the Broad Gauge, very terrifying, very cool.
Taschi wrote: 05 Jun 2021 21:27 Have you considered that maybe harsh scarcity of products is kind of the point of a wasteland mod?
So this does get to me because it seems like the mod is all about rebuilding from scratch, which means you want cargo scaling from one dune buggy full of precious-precious water all the way up to a Valkyrian nuclear-powered freight train carrying so much water you wonder why you didn't just build a pipe instead.

The chokepoint that makes the game unplayable is the industry growth equation. Standard Open-TTD says the max capacity of each vehicle should be 1/4th the monthly output of the industry to encourage growth, so it's Doom Buggies for days!

Also, as cool as the giant power conduits looks I think you could have gotten away with removing the tracks from the streetcar art and leaving the overhead wires. Maybe re-use the assets for water/oil pipelines?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

BermudaTri wrote: 06 Jun 2021 22:59 The chokepoint that makes the game unplayable is the industry growth equation. Standard Open-TTD says the max capacity of each vehicle should be 1/4th the monthly output of the industry to encourage growth, so it's Doom Buggies for days!
Hmm, not sure where you got that from; the only thing industries really care about is station ratings. In Wasteland the magic number is about 70%; keep your ratings above that and your industries will quickly increase their output**. It doesn't matter if you achieve that figure with 50 Doom Buggies or one big train, it's just the final rating which matters.

**The exceptions to this are the Water Pump and Irradiated Farm which use the standard TTD production rules, so the production changes are a bit different there. But still, better ratings = more output in general. For comparison, I'm usually able to get max production from the mines (576t / month) within 30-50 years with >70% service.
BermudaTri wrote: 06 Jun 2021 22:59 Also, as cool as the giant power conduits looks I think you could have gotten away with removing the tracks from the streetcar art and leaving the overhead wires. Maybe re-use the assets for water/oil pipelines
Yeah maybe. The whole electricity thing is really just an experiment, so I decided to try something a little different. The only thing that bothers me about using catenary graphics is that they look a little dinky to be transmission lines. I would love to have big tall power poles but sadly that also ends up looking goofy being only 1-tile apart (also they have clipping issues, problems with tunnels, etc.). I know GarryG was working on trying to make something which looks better but I'm not sure he solved all the issues.

No matter how you do it, electricity transport is going to be just kind of sloppy, both from a graphics standpoint and for playability. On the other side, getting rid of the transport aspect and just making electricity get there by "magic" (town registers) sounds appealing at first, but then that means you need a power plant in every single town where you need electricity, which is also not ideal. I'm still on the fence about the whole thing honestly :)
andreasaspenberg wrote: 05 Jun 2021 20:57 i tried playing wastland without any grfs and it was impossible. it made me uninstall the game and delete all content.
:lol: This made my day.

On a serious note, the BaseCost mod can help lower the costs if making money is too difficult, and it helps to have an efficient network (playing "realistic" will likely lose money). Otherwise maybe Wasteland just isn't meant for you; it's really not worth rage-quitting over :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i discovered a critical bug. the town hall no longer works. i keep delivering food and water and it still does not update. no matter how much food and water i deliver, both is shown as no and the town remains destroyed. the increase in produced wastelanders really helps but, when towns remains at destroyed, they will eventually run out of wastelanders.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Is the station(s) you are delivering food and water to named after the town you are trying to grow? If your station is in between two towns, sometimes only the one it is named after will actually get the cargo. Otherwise I would need a savegame to diagnose it.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

the station is named after the town. here is the savegame though.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

It seems somehow you've managed to get 0 values for these two parameters, which should be impossible:

Grimsvoll Transport, 2171-12-02.png
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You wouldn't happen to have scenario/newgrf developer tools active, would you? The only way I can achieve that^ is by having developer tools active and "upgrading" the NewGRF in an old save, which you should never do when something is marked as incompatible.

Nevermind the above; this is likely an extension of this bug: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/8846

You may get lucky and be able to "fix" this issue by increasing these parameters and re-applying the GRF settings, though I cannot guarantee that.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i set them on maximum. that means that something glitched during startup. on the other hand: the default values for those parameters is 0. it is therefore not impossible, it is just the default values. that is something you as a developer can fix. it was the default value for the previous alpha as well. i updated from the previous alpha to this one and used max settings.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 07 Jun 2021 20:33on the other hand: the default values for those parameters is 0.
No, it is not:

Code: Select all

min_value: 1;
max_value: 12;
def_value: 2;
This is related to #8846. Do not use the "upgrade" button in the NewGRF settings window; it is not working properly in this situation. Please remove and replace Wasteland in the NewGRF list manually to prevent this issue for now.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by BermudaTri »

Andrew350 wrote: 07 Jun 2021 05:52 Yeah maybe. The whole electricity thing is really just an experiment, so I decided to try something a little different. The only thing that bothers me about using catenary graphics is that they look a little dinky to be transmission lines. I would love to have big tall power poles but sadly that also ends up looking goofy being only 1-tile apart (also they have clipping issues, problems with tunnels, etc.). I know GarryG was working on trying to make something which looks better but I'm not sure he solved all the issues.

No matter how you do it, electricity transport is going to be just kind of sloppy, both from a graphics standpoint and for playability. On the other side, getting rid of the transport aspect and just making electricity get there by "magic" (town registers) sounds appealing at first, but then that means you need a power plant in every single town where you need electricity, which is also not ideal. I'm still on the fence about the whole thing honestly :)
I don't think it's unreasonable to call for a powerplant in every town (but it would be nice if they could accept coal OR oil). It's certainly a post-apocalyptic requirement and most of the time I'm only restoring maybe a dozen towns across an entire map's worth of resources.
If you're really keen on the post-apoc self-sufficient high-tech metropolis, maybe you could make cities import solar panels instead of pure electricity? Then you just need an industry chain for solar panels that includes oil.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

BermudaTri wrote: 08 Jun 2021 01:28If you're really keen on the post-apoc self-sufficient high-tech metropolis, maybe you could make cities import solar panels instead of pure electricity?
Hmm, interesting idea. Might be worth investigating as an alternative :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

that sounds interesting. i would want to try that idea. on the other hand: you could add coal as a possible thing for power plants. just rename them from oil-fired powerplant to just powerplant. they could produce more power with both oil and coal.
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