Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

[richnsim]

it's still a bit wonky outside the temperate climate

Oh, sh*t that was a translation error, I thought it was ment to be played with sub-tropical climate (shame on me)

Do you use any GameScript?

Not that I know. I usually play BTPro multiplayer games with the 1.10.3 client downloaded from their homepage. I don't know if there are any scrips hidden in there...

[Michpi]

Well, your city's window looks different from the default one.
For me it looks like there is built-in city growth GS, which can conflict with Wasteland.
Try vanilla OpenTTD or JGRPP.

[Michpi]

Hello Andrew350!
Thank you for developing this set!

It seems to me that the wastelanders mechanics in latest release has broken
I use 2 Tornado helicopters to transfer wastlanders to Mineral mine and Gravel pit. I got money, but didn't see any effect. Production level stayed at Normal level. Production output maybe changed a bit, but I'm not sure.

As for the other changes...
I've played maybe dozen of Wasteland's game of different versions and I don't remember any serviced industry closing down, except the Offshore Colony. Even if only one required cargo was delivered. I really like previous production mechanics of Food lab and and I would love to see it back
Now it's very difficult to deliver all the required cargo at the same time. You need either use a lot of short trains or accept the inefficient using of delivered cargoes because your output is only 1/2 or 1/4 This makes the beginning of the game even more harder.
I think that FIRS mechanics might be a better choice for other industries.

A new digital-VU-meter looks really good.

Just out of curiosity. Why do you choose different length of wagons?

[Andrew350]

It seems to me that the wastelanders mechanics in latest release has broken

Hmm, I think what is happening here is that there is such a small delivery of Wastelanders that it isn't registering. I know what's causing it, I just have to figure out a fix.

[technical rant]

[+] Spoiler

The issue is that industry production can apparently only happen in multiples of 6 (I have no idea why), which means if too little cargo is delivered there's a good chance the displayed output gets 'rounded' to 0. To compound the issue, the internal variables which track this output don't always match up with what the industry is actually producing.

For example: Deliver 4 tons of cargo to a secondary industry which should produce 1:1 output. If you have a truck waiting to pick up the output, it will actually load 6 tons of cargo, while the industry window will continue showing 0 tons produced that month. In this case the internal variables will also show 0 produced cargo. This means any production mechanics which rely on these variables returning a sensible value relative to what is actually being produced don't always agree with each other. Far as I can tell this rounding issue is always happening, it's just that with larger numbers the effect doesn't appear as obvious.

Note that this isn't an issue with my set specifically, but affects all industries, including default ones. In the case of Wasteland this is more of an issue than with other industry sets due to the unusually low production amounts. This means that quite frequently the amount of cargo you receive is actually quite a bit different (relatively speaking) than what you're being told. This is something I've been fighting since day 1, and yet I still keep finding myself forgetting to properly deal with it Someday I will learn...

[/technical rant]

Anyway, I just need to find a better way to track wastelander deliveries instead of relying on output (which is lazy). Shouldn't be too hard, I think In the mean time all I can suggest is to try to always deliver at least 6 wastelanders at a time (so maybe do full load?) which should trigger the boost mechanic.

I really like previous production mechanics of Food lab and and I would love to see it back
Now it's very difficult to deliver all the required cargo at the same time. You need either use a lot of short trains or accept the inefficient using of delivered cargoes because your output is only 1/2 or 1/4 This makes the beginning of the game even more harder.

I also liked the old mechanics, but I've been told many times over the years of people having issues with the industries closing down, and indeed it has happened to me once or twice. I was actually thinking this change made the game easier rather than harder, but it does indeed create a bit more of a logistical challenge in maintaining stockpiles. I guess I have to call that a feature now I can also tune down the consumption rate if it is going too fast to allow for other deliveries to be made in time

I think that FIRS mechanics might be a better choice for other industries.

Hmm, could you elaborate? Sorry, I haven't played a proper game of FIRS in like 10 years, so I'm a bit rusty on the details

Just out of curiosity. Why do you choose different length of wagons?

The first gen standard gauge wagons are shorter to give a visual indication that they are lower capacity and older. The broad gauge wagons changed size because they were the wrong length before which was causing ugly gaps between wagons. I will probably make the first gen broad gauge wagons slightly shorter as well, I just need to make some graphics for them.

And thank you for feedback once again

[Michpi]

In the mean time all I can suggest is to try to always deliver at least 6 wastelanders at a time (so maybe do full load?) which should trigger the boost mechanic

But I did. I use Full load order, so I deliver 15 wastelanders each time.
But yes, the problem in fact is in the number of wastelanders. I send full Guardian (40 wastelanders) to the mine and the production level became doubled.
(Something has changed in latest version. Before even 2 waslelanders were enough).

I guess I have to call that a feature now I can also tune down the consumption rate if it is going too fast to allow for other deliveries to be made in time

Well, if it will be a feature, then we need new very small and very cheap trains On standard (or scavenged) rail please
You can tune the consumption rate, but this can lead to overwhelming the stockpiles in the future.
So you'll have to develop a complex system of production rate in dependence of stockpile size.

Hmm, could you elaborate? Sorry, I haven't played a proper game of FIRS in like 10 years, so I'm a bit rusty on the details

"For maximum production rate, supply ALL required cargoes at least once every three months"

[Andrew350]

But I did. I use Full load order, so I deliver 15 wastelanders each time.
But yes, the problem in fact is in the number of wastelanders. I send full Guardian (40 wastelanders) to the mine and the production level became doubled.
(Something has changed in latest version. Before even 2 waslelanders were enough).

Hmm, interesting. Well, the important thing is I know it's definitely broken and it needs to be fixed

The reason it changed was to fix it being broken in the first place, but I've apparently only broken it more...

Well, if it will be a feature, then we need new very small and very cheap trains On standard (or scavenged) rail please
You can tune the consumption rate, but this can lead to overwhelming the stockpiles in the future.
So you'll have to develop a complex system of production rate in dependence of stockpile size.

Somehow I feel like increasing complexity is going to be the solution either way

"For maximum production rate, supply ALL required cargoes at least once every three months"

Ah okay, so basically similar to the production boost in the Offshore Colony where each cargo delivered increases production for x months. I'm not sure that will play nicely with random production changes (at least, I had a hard time getting it to work for the colony, which is probably why FIRS doesn't do that), but I can look into it for other things

[Michpi]

Michpi писал(а): ↑14 апр 2021 06:45
"For maximum production rate, supply ALL required cargoes at least once every three months"

Ah okay, so basically similar to the production boost in the Offshore Colony where each cargo delivered increases production for x months. I'm not sure that will play nicely with random production changes (at least, I had a hard time getting it to work for the colony, which is probably why FIRS doesn't do that), but I can look into it for other things

Actually I suggested this for secondary industries, which should not have random production changes.
This might be an alternative way to determine the production (conversion) rate (1/4, 1/2, 1).
Not so demanding on the frequency of delivery of all goods as the current one.

By the way, in the industry window, there is no information about how often wastelanders needs to be delivered to double production. Once in 2 months as before?

[Andrew350]

By the way, in the industry window, there is no information about how often wastelanders needs to be delivered to double production. Once in 2 months as before?

Yep, still every 2 months, guess I should add that bit

[andreasaspenberg]

for some reason i no longer get emails when people reply. that is one reason i missed the posts in this topic. on the city council screen there is several options(bribe, adverticing, road reconstruction, construction of statue and funding of new buildings). one issue i have experienced in wasteland is that cities starts shrinking no matter how much food, water and building materials they get. i have to fund new buildings all of the time to get them to not shrink.

[Andrew350]

one issue i have experienced in wasteland is that cities starts shrinking no matter how much food, water and building materials they get. i have to fund new buildings all of the time to get them to not shrink.

The key is the frequency of deliveries, not necessarily the amount. All required cargoes must be delivered within the same 2 month period, so if you are delivering by train for example, it may be that only food and water are delivered during that period, but building materials arrive later. In this case it is usually better to use a transfer station and make the final deliveries by truck to increase the chances they are all delivered during the same time frame, or use smaller trains which arrive more frequently.

[ebla71]

Another option is to use a transfer station to "collect" cargo coming from different sources and from there have a short train run to your industry which has railcars for all cargos that need to be delivered. If you also set it to only depart when fully loaded you can ensure high delivery of all necessary goods in the proper ratio by selecting the railcars accordingly. I guess will be much more efficient than trucking.

I use that a lot with XIS to "feed" my blast furnaces, for example, and it works very well.

[andreasaspenberg]

what i did when the cities shrank was that i had food, water and building materials delivered both by train and by tram. it still was not enough. one thing i have noticed however is that it is not neccesary to deliver water. only food will do, then building materials to upgrade from shack to renewed.

[Andrew350]

one thing i have noticed however is that it is not neccesary to deliver water. only food will do, then building materials to upgrade from shack to renewed.

That is...definitely not right Do you have a savegame that shows this happening?

[andreasaspenberg]

yes, i am playing it right now.

[Andrew350]

yes, i am playing it right now.

The train coming from Svensdal Valley station is delivering water in addition to seeds to the Food Lab Toy Factory, which happens to be close enough to the town of Svineid to count as delivery for town growth. That is a very...interesting setup going on there, but everything seems to be working, albeit with the industries a bit messed up due to the other NewGRF modifying things

[andreasaspenberg]

i use manual industries in order to have access to alternate chains. the toy factory for example produces food without chemicals. manual industries also enables me to build the toyland industries free of charge. that helps a lot in the early game. manual industries also gives me a lot of oppurtunities. the factory that normally produces sweets now produces chemicals. not that any of that is relevant to the discussion however. what is relevant is that i have managed to get cities from destroyed to makeshift/shack without water. not that it bothers me. another thing the developer should do is to animate the water. the developer should also discuss it with the developer of wet rails so that wet rails can use the wasteland water.

[Andrew350]

what is relevant is that i have managed to get cities from destroyed to makeshift/shack without water. not that it bothers me.

...
As I explained, you are delivering water to that town. Towns do not (and cannot) discriminate between cargo delivered directly to them, or delivered to an industry nearby. Since you are delivering water to the industry right next to the town, that is allowing the town to grow

another thing the developer should do is to animate the water.

If you want animated water, you must disable "Dirty Water" in the GRF parameters. The dirty water, as it is colored now at least, cannot be animated due to the way palette animation works.

the developer should also discuss it with the developer of wet rails so that wet rails can use the wasteland water.

You would have to ask the author of that set to include that. That is not something I am interested in pursuing myself

[andreasaspenberg]

the game i am playing is just one example of cities growing just with food. the other one was deleted. in the other one however i only sent food and i had no nearby industries that i shipped water to. one suggestion is that cities can have an indicator of how much building materials, food and water they have at the moment. think of the way the food lab works. use something similar for cities. by using that kind of system, it would be possible to deliver building materials at the start and it is just not used until it is needed. that will also make city restoration more stable.

[LaChupacabra]

They write everywhere that sweets are chemistry only... Ingredients: water, sugar, E211, E127, E954, E131, salt, aromas
At least no one is trying to cheat here.

Wasteland - Honest factory.png (40.71 KiB) Viewed 2432 times

yes, i am playing it right now.

I'm not sure if you know this, but mixing different industrial sets is generally a very bad idea. Yes, sometimes it causes funny results, but also problems. Cargoes have specific identifiers, if you add another set that may replace them, then everything stops working as expected.

In any case, there are apparently missing incompatibility markings with some sets. At least warnings that something may not work.
The second problem that can be seen here is again the lack of information for the player what the city expects. There are probably only two options at the moment. Either a simple script that adds information to the city window, or special enterprises that would accept cargoes (or not) telling the player what to deliver. If adding another set changed these cargoes, probably the player would still see what to do.

I tested the disappearance of enterprises in version 0.7 alpha1, and the results are quite unambiguous. I have built 10 Food Labs, 4 Steel Mills, 4 Prefab Manufacturing Facilities. All enterprises are supplied but not with all raw materials, so they do not produce anything. After 5 years from the establishment, 60% of enterprises disappeared in the next 3 years, despite deliveries. The same thing happens in any other industrial set if the factories don't produce anything - this is the mechanism provided by the game.

Wasteland - InduClose TEST, 2200-01-01.sav

(41.23 KiB) Downloaded 49 times

I also checked how long the supplies lasted and it doesn't look as bad as Michipi writes.
This is what it looks like:
If you deliver 10 units, there will be 19 days in stock
If you deliver 100 units, there will be 54 days in stock
If you deliver 1000 units, there will be 82 days of inventory
If you deliver 15,000 units, there will be 116 days in stock

In my opinion, it makes some sense that the supply of larger quantities lasts longer - there is no such function of FIRS.

Generally, 25% of stocks are now used every 3,5 days. A fairly large supply is needed to maintain full production capacity for a longer period of time. A reduction in consumption could help. Then even smaller deliveries would allow production to be maintained for these 3 months. Currently, it is almost impossible to obtain more than 10,000 inventories so there is no danger of overfilling. I don't think it would be bad either to get a short information about how factories use up supplies.

Regarding the FIRS mechanism, it's nice due its simplicity and lack of literality. For example, you can deliver 10,000 packages made from the clay and one fish every three months to a fishing port to achieve full food production efficiency. It is even quite realistic, and also allows for fun interpretations. From another example, in one of the games I had a company called "Wood Metallization Plant" that produces thousands of tons of metal from wood and sand with a very small addition of iron ore.
However, the raw materials suppiled are not shown in FIRS (only "suppiled" or no information) and production is immediate upon delivery. In this respect, Wasteland is more interesting in my opinion. Which way you go is your decision. Both are fun.

[andreasaspenberg]

where can i find the alpha version?