Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

LaChupacabra wrote: 19 Apr 2021 23:10 I also checked how long the supplies lasted and it doesn't look as bad as Michipi writes.
This is what it looks like:
If you deliver 10 units, there will be 19 days in stock
If you deliver 100 units, there will be 54 days in stock
If you deliver 1000 units, there will be 82 days of inventory
If you deliver 15,000 units, there will be 116 days in stock
I think you don't understand right what I was talking about.
Typical production rate of Mine/Pit/Quarry is 40 (32 or 54) tonn per month in the beginning of the game.
How long does it take to fill only one wagon (40 t cargo)? Don't forget about station's rating 67%.
Is it possible to maintain high production rate of the secondary industry using only one Mine/Pit/ ?
If you'll deliver only one cargo, the output will be very low. For example, I delivered 180 t of steel and got 34 t of building materials only (maybe because of rounding error)
And you have not enough money at the beginning of game to create routes from several mines or use wastelander's boost.
As I said, this makes the beginning of the game more harder than it was before.
Of course, as soon as your company becomes profitable enough, this problem completely disappeared.
Anyway you can just call that a feature :)
andreasaspenberg wrote: 20 Apr 2021 15:39 where can i find the alpha version?
Here
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Hello Andrew350!

It seems to me that maglev train is a bit longer.
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Houses are built near highway road if it is crossed by power conduit :shock:
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

LaChupacabra wrote: 19 Apr 2021 23:10 In any case, there are apparently missing incompatibility markings with some sets. At least warnings that something may not work.
Well, this particular industry set I had never heard of, but yes there are still many sets I haven't added to the incompatible list. Before 0.7 release I'll have probably added most of what FIRS disables, but I'd also like to keep options open if there's some way of making them work :)
LaChupacabra wrote: 19 Apr 2021 23:10 However, the raw materials suppiled are not shown in FIRS (only "suppiled" or no information) and production is immediate upon delivery.
Yeah, FIRS does something very different with its production so it doesn't do the stockpile thing, but I've tried looking at FIRS code and I can't tell up from down honestly. It's fine because I didn't want to do "just" another FIRS clone anyway, but some of what it does would be nice to understand. Industry code sucks :)
Michpi wrote: 20 Apr 2021 17:14 It seems to me that maglev train is a bit longer.
Hmm yeah, maybe it's a bit too pointy ;) I'll look at it.
Michpi wrote: 20 Apr 2021 17:14 Houses are built near highway road if it is crossed by power conduit :shock:
Interesting, it seems that tramtypes somehow interfere with the NO_HOUSES flag of roadtypes, if the tramtype doesn't also have that flag set. That really looks like a bug with NRT since houses should not grow alongside tramways at all, regardless of setting that flag. I'll raise an issue about it, in the meantime I can add the flag to prevent it for now :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

manual industries does not cause any issues. nuts unrealistic train set also works without issues.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Time for Alpha 3 :)

This update mainly fixes the broken Wastelander mechanics encountered in previous versions, but this time for real**! It should no longer be a problem delivering very small quantities of Wastelanders, in fact it should be much more reliable all around. As part of this change, Tired Wastelanders now have a slight delay in production from the time of Wastelander delivery (at most 4-5 days). This is an experimental change based on a suggestion, so if you dislike it for whatever reason let me know and it can be tuned to be a longer delay or removed entirely to be instant production like it was before (or if it's very controversial, I could make it a parameter to adjust it...).

I also added a (hopefully) clearer description of what the secondary industries are doing with production when different amounts of cargos are delivered, and corrected the power conduit allowing houses to be built along highways.

Once again (because of modifying industries, again), this alpha is not compatible with previous versions. Please let me know if you have any more issues with the Wastelander boost mechanic. I really hope I got it right this time, but if not I'd really like to fix it ;)
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**If it's still broken, I blame someone else
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i noticed one thing that is a bit unbalanced and that is the cost to fund industries. here is my suggestion: set the cost based on usefulness. lower costs for material industries that can not increase production so that players can have many of them while the costs for inudstries that can be boosted should be higher to account for the fact that production can be boosted, though current costs is extreme. you could add an option to set indestry costs between cheap and expensive. the cost of the water pump is now 1000 times of what it was. another idea you could consider now that hardware accelleration have been added is to use it for your project.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 21 Apr 2021 21:32 i noticed one thing that is a bit unbalanced and that is the cost to fund industries. here is my suggestion: set the cost based on usefulness. lower costs for material industries that can not increase production so that players can have many of them while the costs for inudstries that can be boosted should be higher to account for the fact that production can be boosted, though current costs is extreme. you could add an option to set indestry costs between cheap and expensive. the cost of the water pump is now 1000 times of what it was.
It is intentional that industries are very expensive to fund. How expensive they are is (roughly) based on the value of the product they produce, which is why a chemical plant is more expensive than a sand quarry, for example. If you want different costs, you can always use the BaseCosts Mod.
andreasaspenberg wrote: 21 Apr 2021 21:32 another idea you could consider now that hardware accelleration have been added is to use it for your project.
That has absolutely no relevance to NewGRFs whatsoever ;)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

where do i find a cost mod that is compatible with wasteland or what is it named?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

The problem with closing offshore colony hasn't solved :(
Below 2 saves: When the announcement has appear and autosave from the beginning of the month.
JGRPP 0.41.0
I tried running autosave several times and each time offshore colony was closing.

Edit. If I manage to establish a passenger service before closing, the offshore colony does not close.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

you could just turn off the function that makes industries close, there is an option for that. here is a suggestion for the project: please bring back the large trucks. it is one function i am missing in the latest alpha. please also add some trams and cargo maglev.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 22 Apr 2021 09:11 where do i find a cost mod that is compatible with wasteland or what is it named?
BaseCost Mod 5.0, it's on the online content.
andreasaspenberg wrote: 22 Apr 2021 16:20 please bring back the large trucks. it is one function i am missing in the latest alpha
They're coming, soon(tm).
Michpi wrote: 22 Apr 2021 10:55 The problem with closing offshore colony hasn't solved :(
So let me tell you a story.

I have been ripping my hair out trying to solve why this industry keeps doing things I'm not telling it to. At every turn it seemed to just blatantly ignore the production rules I was setting, dropping below limits I was explicitly setting in the code. Then today, while I was watching in the debug info, I noticed a strange thing: the industry production dropped by 2 levels at once. That is impossible. My code explicitly can only ever allow for a change of 1 per cycle. So I went back to the code to look at it again for the 5,439,000th time, and again could not figure out where it was going wrong. After staring at it for some minutes I suddenly got a sinking feeling about that impossible 2 level drop. Random production change.

"It cannot possibly be that simple, please tell me it's not that simple..."

It was.

Somehow, at some point, I either forgot to disable or removed the random_prod_change callback for the Offshore Colony, which was causing random production changes which were circumventing the normal production code changes. It never occurred to me to look for it, because that was pretty much the first thing I disabled for all industries, so it never even crossed my mind that it was missing from the other callbacks. All of this trouble, because of a missing 1-line of code that I forgot about :twisted:

==========================

All of this is to say: it is finally fixed! And this time I'm reasonably confident that it actually is ;) After quite a bit of testing, I've found it doing exactly what I expect, and now closure should be fairly rare and only when both production rates are at the minimum.

I've attached the alpha-4 below, which should fix the offshore colony closing and production problems. You should be safe using it in your existing game(s) with the alpha-3 build, but be aware that I can't guarantee it will fix already-existing industries, although it did seem to work for Michpi's autosave :) Also this build contains a fix which should prevent renewed houses from being removed when wastelanders are being transported from a town without food and water delivery. Shack houses will still disappear though (that is intended).

Fingers crossed this actually works this time, but let me know if it doesn't :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i have done some testing and found a few areas that can be improved. you should move power conduits to train tracks. it is more flexible than road construction. another thing you should do is to add land based oil wells. those would be useful for maps that have more land than sea. i experienced that my power plant was very far away from the sea and therefore also far away from an off shore colony. you could call the land version land colony or something. you should also make it so that the game generates powerplants within a good distance from towns, since power is required to get to renewed.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Andrew350 wrote: 22 Apr 2021 18:32 Industries working now...
"Pfft, I don't care if the industries work or not, I just want some crazy vehicles!"

Oh. Ok.

THE DOOM BUGGY
doom_buggy_preview.png
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This oversized, heavily armored, ex-assault vehicle is the perfect way to get those small amounts of cargo from point A to point B quickly and safely. Featuring all-terrain capability, optional gun mounts, and a fully welded exo cage, your cargo is guaranteed to survive whatever the wasteland throws at you! Includes room for up to six people (or people-like creatures) in the shielded passenger compartment or six tons of cargo strapped in the back. Send anything anywhere with absolute confidence and style*!

*Passengers may demand cheaper fares for the lack of comfort, but Wastelanders will be happy just to have a ride.


=================

I haven't teased anything interesting in a while :) Since it was asked of me to re-introduce some kind of small capacity vehicle(s), I decided to blow the dust off these old sprites I started years ago for a sort of dune buggy-like vehicle. It's hard to make something that actually looks like a dune buggy at this scale though, so it sort of ended up...a little bigger. Exact stats are still up in the air, but it will be available from the beginning of the game, be refittable to any cargo, and will never expire. For the moment I'm thinking this will be the only "ultra-low" capacity vehicle, since I really found them not that useful personally, so I don't want to do a full roster, but this should hopefully fill the gap for those who wanted a small capacity vehicle. And who knows, maybe more will be added later :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

Andrew350 wrote: 23 Apr 2021 05:11 THE DOOM BUGGY
Cool :o I'm looking forward for it.
Andrew350 wrote: 23 Apr 2021 05:11 Exact stats are still up in the air
4-6 tonn/passengers, 50-60 km/h, low price and running cost?

Edit
Thought a bit.
Maybe there should be a much faster passenger's version: 100-120 km/h :idea:
/Edit

Shouldn't the production level's meter of Steel Mill be green?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

think it matches the number of materials. the steel mill have 2 so it goes to yellow. though the developer is likely to know this better.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Michpi wrote: 23 Apr 2021 07:48 Shouldn't the production level's meter of Steel Mill be green?
Haha, oops. Yeah that's supposed to go green, must have used the wrong string :oops: Will fix.
Michpi wrote: 23 Apr 2021 07:48 4-6 tonn/passengers, 50-60 km/h, low price and running cost?
It will definitely be cheap since you won't earn much running 6 tons of cargo. For now I set it to 55mph/88km/h, but we'll see how it fits in :)
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

you should add monorail. you could make it the next after broad gauge. between broad gauge and maglev. it is not a problem in terms of number of railroad systems. i had something like 15 different systems in the game before through various grfs. the balance in terms of wastelanders could certainly also be improved. here is another suggestion: make mines take passengers. that would enable them to still produce maximum even after all cities is self sustained. i think i discovered a bug. i provide all 4 things to towns and none of them becomes self sustained. they have gone from shack to renewed however, lots of renewed but, no self sustained.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Michpi »

andreasaspenberg wrote: 23 Apr 2021 20:02 i think i discovered a bug. i provide all 4 things to towns and none of them becomes self sustained.
Did you build Municipal Hub (near the chosen city)? Did you provide passengers service?
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by andreasaspenberg »

i started providing passengers but the city shrank. now i have started up the latest alpha, since the person i was going to play it with never showed up. i will inform you if i find any bugs. towns now change from destroyed to shack/makeshift much more slowly than before.
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Re: Wasteland [WIP] - 0.5.0 Released Sept 24, 2020!

Post by Andrew350 »

Big changes on the way ;)

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Been working on this for a few days, just needs a little more polish and some testing to make sure I've caught all the edge cases.

This should hopefully make understanding town growth a little easier. There are some limitations, and it will come with a few small changes to the town growth behavior, but more details on that later :)
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