[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Discuss, get help with, or post new graphics for TTDPatch and OpenTTD, using the NewGRF system, here. Graphics for plain TTD also acceptable here.

Moderator: Graphics Moderators

How do you use the regional parameters?

Only one region enabled
18
15%
Multiple regions (but not all) enabled
36
30%
All regions enabled
68
56%
 
Total votes: 122

User avatar
NekoMaster
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 3943
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 22:26
Skype: neko-master
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, CANADA

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 20 Nov 2017 14:58

Gliptal wrote:Thanks. I'll put it to good use!
Just make sure to give credit to the artists that made the sprites (the name of the artists is usually in the sprite sheet)

ALso, you'll need to comply with the terms of the GPL v2 license that the 2cc Train Set is under (meaning you must include a copy of the license and provide the source for your project)
Image Proud Canadian Image
Nekomasters Projects! (Downloads available on BaNaNaS!) \(>^w^<)/
# NARS ADD-ON SET 2CC | 2cc Rapid Transit For Me! (2ccRTFM) | 2cc Wagons In NML (2ccWIN)
# NML Category System (Organize your GRFS!) <- TT-Forums Exclusive Download!

McZapkie
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 1176
Joined: 18 Jan 2014 18:10

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by McZapkie » 16 Mar 2018 22:24

First generation of flat cars with caterpillar thingy (machinery) looks rather weird according to beginning of XIX century. I porpose to use horse carriages or crates instead (in fact, horse coaches were commonly transported on top of flat cars at the heyday of railways).
Sprites attached:
Gen1_Flat_Wagon_Machinery.png
Gen1_Flat_Wagon_Machinery.png (9.8 KiB) Viewed 2532 times
My experimental openTTD server: 149.156.194.203:3979 non-standard client, now testing: JGRPP http://tiny.pl/ggnch
Projects: Reproducible Map Generation patch, NewGRFs: Manpower industries, PolTrams, Polroad, 600mm narrow gauge, preindustrial houses, wired, ECS industry extension, V4 CEE train set.
Addicted to freeciv longturn.

User avatar
TrainLover
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 88
Joined: 01 Jul 2015 15:03

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by TrainLover » 21 Jul 2018 17:52

How do you use the templates when you go and try to make the sprites appear in game? If you aren't using templates, how do you figure out what the sprite offsets are in the first place?

Shadow86
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 5
Joined: 06 Oct 2018 23:07

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Shadow86 » 10 Oct 2018 14:14

A few issues, one more related to 2cc than the others.

Why are the pack's wagon speeds so low when the pack itself adds engines with much greater maximum speeds? I mean, by the late 20th century you have some engines capable of exceeding 300 km/h, yet 5th generation cars only seem to tolerate 180 km/h at most. And for a long time, you need to put up with 4th gen wagon's 101 km/h even though there's plenty of engines that can push 150-200 km/h. Thankfully this is easily addressed removing wagon speed limits mid-game, but the decision still puzzles me.

The other thing, it's now unclear just how closely the 2cc team worked with NuTracks. I had initially gathered NuTracks was an actual dependency for 2cc Trains, but after activating both and several game decades down the line, I found out NuTracks doesn't properly activate 3rd rail (metro) tracks in the presence of 2cc, despite an alleged auto-detect feature. Furthermore, the highest electrified track can't tolerate more than 350 km/h, and 2cc has a Chinese electric rail engine in the late game theoretically capable of doing 380+ km/h.

I suppose the cooperation kind of faded over the years? Both of NuTracks-related issues can be rectified tweaking NewGRF settings, of course, but only with the foreknowledge that they exist. I don't know if I can safely tinker with parameters without risking the integrity of my ongoing game.

User avatar
kamnet
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 6767
Joined: 28 Sep 2009 17:15
Location: Eastern KY
Contact:

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by kamnet » 10 Oct 2018 14:32

Shadow86 wrote:I don't know if I can safely tinker with parameters without risking the integrity of my ongoing game.
As a general rule, you can never safely tinker with parameters once you start a game. Any changes once the game starts risks permanent corruption of the game at some point.

User avatar
NekoMaster
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 3943
Joined: 16 Aug 2008 22:26
Skype: neko-master
Location: Oshawa, Ontario, CANADA

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 11 Oct 2018 14:15

Shadow86 wrote:A few issues, one more related to 2cc than the others.

Why are the pack's wagon speeds so low when the pack itself adds engines with much greater maximum speeds? I mean, by the late 20th century you have some engines capable of exceeding 300 km/h, yet 5th generation cars only seem to tolerate 180 km/h at most. And for a long time, you need to put up with 4th gen wagon's 101 km/h even though there's plenty of engines that can push 150-200 km/h. Thankfully this is easily addressed removing wagon speed limits mid-game, but the decision still puzzles me.

The other thing, it's now unclear just how closely the 2cc team worked with NuTracks. I had initially gathered NuTracks was an actual dependency for 2cc Trains, but after activating both and several game decades down the line, I found out NuTracks doesn't properly activate 3rd rail (metro) tracks in the presence of 2cc, despite an alleged auto-detect feature. Furthermore, the highest electrified track can't tolerate more than 350 km/h, and 2cc has a Chinese electric rail engine in the late game theoretically capable of doing 380+ km/h.

I suppose the cooperation kind of faded over the years? Both of NuTracks-related issues can be rectified tweaking NewGRF settings, of course, but only with the foreknowledge that they exist. I don't know if I can safely tinker with parameters without risking the integrity of my ongoing game.
The thing about Freight wagon speed limits is that freight tends to be heavy and dangerous. Would you want tankers full of combustable fuels or dangerous chemicals zipping around at 300 km/h or faster? The faster a train goes the harder it is to stop and the more likely the accident will be catastrophic.

ALso you can mess around with GRF's and Parameters at your own risk but In my experience, so long as you dont remove any GRF's in use or change up industry parameters like with the FIRS econemy selection you should be fine.
More then once have I been in a situation that i forgot to enable Low speed and Medium speed 3rd rail and had to enable it mid-game.
Image Proud Canadian Image
Nekomasters Projects! (Downloads available on BaNaNaS!) \(>^w^<)/
# NARS ADD-ON SET 2CC | 2cc Rapid Transit For Me! (2ccRTFM) | 2cc Wagons In NML (2ccWIN)
# NML Category System (Organize your GRFS!) <- TT-Forums Exclusive Download!

Shadow86
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 5
Joined: 06 Oct 2018 23:07

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Shadow86 » 11 Oct 2018 22:12

NekoMaster wrote:
Shadow86 wrote:Would you want tankers full of combustable fuels or dangerous chemicals zipping around at 300 km/h or faster? The faster a train goes the harder it is to stop and the more likely the accident will be catastrophic.
I don't know. How's it different with wagons full of squishy passengers?

If this is how it works in real life, and the mod's just following realism, I understand. But it's rather counter-intuitive to see maximum speed values which are strictly theoretical in most cases.

User avatar
Voyager One
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 11146
Joined: 28 Dec 2009 09:47
Location: Rijeka, Croatia

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Voyager One » 13 Oct 2018 07:40

Shadow86 wrote:speeds
Most modern cars can easily go 200 km/h but noone drives them like that as it's illegal and dangerous.

Also, isn't there a game option to disable wagon speed limits? Ah, yes, there is one... :mrgreen:
speed.PNG
speed.PNG (42.76 KiB) Viewed 1957 times
Leon

Image Image Image Image
"... all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by..." - John Masefield

Transportman
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 2690
Joined: 22 Feb 2011 18:34

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 13 Oct 2018 10:28

Shadow86 wrote:A few issues, one more related to 2cc than the others.

Why are the pack's wagon speeds so low when the pack itself adds engines with much greater maximum speeds? I mean, by the late 20th century you have some engines capable of exceeding 300 km/h, yet 5th generation cars only seem to tolerate 180 km/h at most. And for a long time, you need to put up with 4th gen wagon's 101 km/h even though there's plenty of engines that can push 150-200 km/h. Thankfully this is easily addressed removing wagon speed limits mid-game, but the decision still puzzles me.
It is not always about speed, but other factors play a role as well, such as TE and power for locs, and capacity and weight for coaches and wagons.

The other thing, it's now unclear just how closely the 2cc team worked with NuTracks. I had initially gathered NuTracks was an actual dependency for 2cc Trains, but after activating both and several game decades down the line, I found out NuTracks doesn't properly activate 3rd rail (metro) tracks in the presence of 2cc, despite an alleged auto-detect feature. Furthermore, the highest electrified track can't tolerate more than 350 km/h, and 2cc has a Chinese electric rail engine in the late game theoretically capable of doing 380+ km/h.

I suppose the cooperation kind of faded over the years? Both of NuTracks-related issues can be rectified tweaking NewGRF settings, of course, but only with the foreknowledge that they exist. I don't know if I can safely tinker with parameters without risking the integrity of my ongoing game.
There is no cooperation anymore, there was between the old version of the 2cc-set and NuTracks, but this set never has been designed with NuTracks as a dependency, although fixing the issue should be relatively straightforward from this set (adding the NuTracks-label for 3rd rail to the railtypetabel should fix it).
Coder of the Dutch Trackset | Development support for the Dutch Trainset | Coder of the 2cc TrainsInNML

User avatar
acs121
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 1949
Joined: 03 Nov 2017 18:57
Location: Courbevoie, near Paris, France

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by acs121 » 13 Oct 2018 20:05

Shadow86 wrote:
NekoMaster wrote:
Shadow86 wrote:Would you want tankers full of combustable fuels or dangerous chemicals zipping around at 300 km/h or faster? The faster a train goes the harder it is to stop and the more likely the accident will be catastrophic.
I don't know. How's it different with wagons full of squishy passengers?

If this is how it works in real life, and the mod's just following realism, I understand. But it's rather counter-intuitive to see maximum speed values which are strictly theoretical in most cases.
Well, the fastest locomotive available is the SNCF CC 40100... being french and knowing this locomotive, it can actually go at 241 kph, however, the cars it used to pull couldn't go faster than 200 kph in general. The thing is about the speed the loco can perform with or without any cars or wagons.
If you're talking about MUs, they are meant to be used with MU cars, always adapting to their speed.

User avatar
Valle
Transport Coordinator
Transport Coordinator
Posts: 267
Joined: 15 May 2007 11:35
Location: Germany

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Valle » 16 Oct 2018 09:56

Shadow86 wrote:
NekoMaster wrote:
Shadow86 wrote:Would you want tankers full of combustable fuels or dangerous chemicals zipping around at 300 km/h or faster? The faster a train goes the harder it is to stop and the more likely the accident will be catastrophic.
I don't know. How's it different with wagons full of squishy passengers?

If this is how it works in real life, and the mod's just following realism, I understand. But it's rather counter-intuitive to see maximum speed values which are strictly theoretical in most cases.
As far as I can recall (having contributed to the capacity/speed balancing of coaches and freight cars of this set), 2cc TrainsInNML is generally pretty close to real-life values because the vehicle stats are based on real-world examples. In real life, freight cars rated to run at high speeds (say, over 75 mph) are pretty rare because of the higher cost of more sophisticated bogies and brake systems that would be required to permit them to run at those speeds in most countries (e.g. electromagnetic track brakes). In the most cases, this is not economical, thus freight trains exceeding 75 mph are usually rare exceptions.

For example, Germany's fastest freight train (Parcel InterCity) runs at 87 mph, but only when governed by the LZB system on high speed railways. It used to hit 100 mph with ES64U locomotives and cars rated for 100 mph with electropneumatic brakes, but this was not economical - consuming too many train paths due to the high speed difference to regular freight trains and requiring bespoke rolling stock, with only four suitable trains available nationwide. At 87 mph under LZB control, there is a wider range of vehicles, offering more operational flexibility - if I'm not mistaken, these cars do not need electropneumatic brakes if 87 mph are only reached under LZB control. Beyond all that, the even higher energy consumption (for little benefit depending on how long it takes to hit top speed before it's time to brake again) is a factor as well, of course. The fastest container flat wagons I am aware of today are the Transmashholding 13-6954 from Russia with a 2'2' axle layout to carry 36 tons at 100 mph / 160 km/h and the similarly-sized but lighter Kockums Industrier Lgss-y055, a 2-axle flatcar carrying 27 tons of Swedish mail.

Both of these fast container wagons are fairly short (15 to 17 m), carrying only up to one 40' or 45' container, as opposed to the 80' and 68.5 tons you can put on a 26 m single-chassis Sggns(s) 80' with a 2'2' axle layout at 75 mph / 120 km/h. With a split chassis for a 2'2'2' axle layout, you can even bring the payload to 107 tons at the same top speed and length (e.g. Sggrs(s) 80').

For the relative payload and capacity per length, the higher-speed wagons fall short compared to conventional 80' wagons - and the same goes for acquisition and maintenance costs, based on more sophisticated brakes and bogies, as well as more axles per container (the latter only applies to the Russian wagon). These high speed vehicles are often built for a specific purpose, e.g. fast transport of mail (Sweden) or the fast transport of goods over long distances (e.g. InterCargoExpress & new Russian flatcar for carrying Chinese cargo to Europe across Russia quickly), and this comes at a high cost. When DB launched its 160 km/h InterCargoExpress operations in 1991, the vehicle acquisition alone already cost them about 67% more than for conventional freight cars. The Russian design is fitted with bogies taken from a passenger coach with electropneumatic brakes - and that solution is most certainly not cheaper than regular freight bogies.

User avatar
Zoeff
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 33
Joined: 29 Jul 2005 15:22
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Zoeff » 11 Dec 2018 19:52

Looks like 1st gen passenger wagons are obsolete before 2nd Gen passenger wagons appear? Is that intentional?

Transportman
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 2690
Joined: 22 Feb 2011 18:34

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 13 Dec 2018 16:57

Zoeff wrote:Looks like 1st gen passenger wagons are obsolete before 2nd Gen passenger wagons appear? Is that intentional?
Thanks for the report, that is not supposed to happen. There was already a bug for the availability because there was another gap, I added a comment to it that there might also be a gap between 1st and 2nd gen.
Coder of the Dutch Trackset | Development support for the Dutch Trainset | Coder of the 2cc TrainsInNML

rowdog
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 57
Joined: 24 May 2017 12:51
Location: East Texas

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by rowdog » 13 Dec 2018 18:28

There's also a gap between the 2nd and 3rd generation freight wagons. If you start a game in the year 1919 it's quite likely that you won't be able to buy freight wagons at all.

User avatar
Zoeff
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 33
Joined: 29 Jul 2005 15:22
Location: Haarlem, Netherlands

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Zoeff » 17 Dec 2018 18:51

Transportman wrote:
Zoeff wrote:Looks like 1st gen passenger wagons are obsolete before 2nd Gen passenger wagons appear? Is that intentional?
Thanks for the report, that is not supposed to happen. There was already a bug for the availability because there was another gap, I added a comment to it that there might also be a gap between 1st and 2nd gen.
Ah thanks for the reply! Will update my server when the next version becomes available. It starts in 1860 so rowdog's comment about 1919 probably applies to me as well. For now I'll set never_expire_vehicles to true. :)

User avatar
Maddog45353
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Jun 2013 09:00

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Maddog45353 » 18 Aug 2019 21:56

Is this still in development and still adding more stuff?
I hope you plan on adding maybe all of nars 2 engines at some point or making it more balancable in parameters so we could use it alongside like maybe adjusting purchase and running costs of both engines and wagons seperated aswell as adjusting weight empty and full.
ComicalStPetersmith

Transportman
Tycoon
Tycoon
Posts: 2690
Joined: 22 Feb 2011 18:34

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 22 Aug 2019 19:32

Maddog45353 wrote:
18 Aug 2019 21:56
Is this still in development and still adding more stuff?
I hope you plan on adding maybe all of nars 2 engines at some point or making it more balancable in parameters so we could use it alongside like maybe adjusting purchase and running costs of both engines and wagons seperated aswell as adjusting weight empty and full.
There has been no recent development, and I don't expect much development will come. This set is complete, there are no real breaking bugs in there (the gaps between generations is unfortunate, but has a workaround), there might be some small new features coming, but don't expect anything.

No additional vehicles will be added, unless there is a real case to do so, there are enough vehicles in this set already. Separately setting costs might be easy to code, but how much will it add? Setting empty and full weights will not be done, unless stats are wrong.
Coder of the Dutch Trackset | Development support for the Dutch Trainset | Coder of the 2cc TrainsInNML

User avatar
Maddog45353
Engineer
Engineer
Posts: 81
Joined: 26 Jun 2013 09:00

Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Maddog45353 » 30 Aug 2019 00:23

no worries was only curious and if it could be done.
ComicalStPetersmith

Post Reply

Return to “Graphics Development”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests