[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

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How do you use the regional parameters?

Only one region enabled
18
15%
Multiple regions (but not all) enabled
36
30%
All regions enabled
68
56%
 
Total votes: 122

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 20 Feb 2017 17:02

I do think the Purchase costs for locomotives could come down a bit, but the issue here is that the running costs are way too low, I remember stuff being much more expensive to run (especially high speed stuff)

I don't really enjoy playing around with low cost stuff because it feels cheaty and theres no challenge, nothing to stop me from building 5000 trains because they cost next to nothing to run.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 20 Feb 2017 20:35

Oops, I indeed made a mistake a few months back when changing some of the cost factors. To enable cost mods to work properly, I had to set the running costs to the correct type, and also fiddled with the base costs (apparently in the wrong way).

But the running costs of engines should go up ~4-8x while running costs of wagons and coaches should stay more or less the same?
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 21 Feb 2017 00:29

Transportman wrote:Oops, I indeed made a mistake a few months back when changing some of the cost factors. To enable cost mods to work properly, I had to set the running costs to the correct type, and also fiddled with the base costs (apparently in the wrong way).

But the running costs of engines should go up ~4-8x while running costs of wagons and coaches should stay more or less the same?
Yes, the running costs of Locomotives should be much higher then wagons, though I think the wagons could use a little decrease on running costs but that my opinion on the wagons.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Voyager One » 21 Feb 2017 07:29

My penny...

I'd leave running costs as they are now but I'd only decrease the purchase costs of engines by a factor of 10 exactly (so that a $500.000 engine becomes $50.000 engine)...
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 22 Feb 2017 20:40

I have to agree with NekoMaster here, the running costs for engines should be increased and wagons should stay around the same. Purchase costs would remain the same.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Lionic » 28 Feb 2017 10:31

Perhaps you should include additional costs depending on the maximum speed? Now we have quite a few low speed locomotives that could be used for slower freight trains, but their running costs are not lower than these of higher speed engines.

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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 28 Feb 2017 20:04

Lionic wrote:Perhaps you should include additional costs depending on the maximum speed? Now we have quite a few low speed locomotives that could be used for slower freight trains, but their running costs are not lower than these of higher speed engines.
There is some equation behind the determination of the running costs, that takes into account speed and some other factors, so it might be that a slow freight train costs the same as the higher speed train because it has a better traction.

But currently changing those costs would take quite some time as I would have to update each vehicle individually, which is why I'm working on code to re-code this set. Then, when something changes, it automatically derives the new values for costs (and at a later point also purchase texts).
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 28 Feb 2017 23:11

Honestly I wish it where easy to make my own version of 2cc Trains where the Locomotives are expensive to run and wagons are cheap like most sets... I was thinking of using notepad++ replace in file function, but I doubt the line for cost and running costs is similar enough across engines and wagons to make that easy.

either that or code in separate parameters for Locomotive and Wagon running costs so that players can set locomotives to be cheaper to buy, but more expensive to run, while having wagons cheap to run and purchase.

I don't mind train sets having running costs for the wagons but trains can get ridiculously expensive to run unless you get lucky and find a high output source of goods to move like multiple mines in one area or a couple of large enough towns to warrant passenger services by train between towns/cities.

One reason I would prefer cheaper to run wagons is because there are a lot of older sets like the DB set and Tropic Renewal Set that don't properly support firs or ecs (not even the DB Set FIRS extension properly supports modern FIRS with some cargos being left out). I use 2cc trains with most engines disabled with these sets and use 2cc sets wagons instead.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 01 Mar 2017 17:42

NekoMaster wrote:Honestly I wish it where easy to make my own version of 2cc Trains where the Locomotives are expensive to run and wagons are cheap like most sets... I was thinking of using notepad++ replace in file function, but I doubt the line for cost and running costs is similar enough across engines and wagons to make that easy.
If you want them to stay balanced you can't do it with Notepad++, but if they all go to a fixed value, it should be possible to do with some regular expression magic (which I never used in Notepad++). After the recode it would be simple, as I plan to just have a central file from which all costs are determined as a function of the vehicle properties, so you would only need to fiddle with the correct function to get the costs you want.
either that or code in separate parameters for Locomotive and Wagon running costs so that players can set locomotives to be cheaper to buy, but more expensive to run, while having wagons cheap to run and purchase.
Problem is that there is no such thing as free lunch a RUNNING_COST_WAGON to set as base, and then have that be modified by the parameter. I could misuse the base for road vehicles, but that would have unintended effects when using base cost mods.

But it is good that discussion is now, I still need to write the code that creates the new code (I have the part that reads the current code), but this is something to take into consideration.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 01 Mar 2017 22:20

It will be nice if the costs for everything can be tweaked manually in the future.

Perhaps having them all in one file could also allow a parameter for switching costs around, like

"Running/Purchase Cost Style"

2cc Trains Style : Locomotives and wagons have moderate costs that add up with more wagons/engines added

Traditional Style : Locomotives cost more to run while wagons cost very little to run.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 24 Mar 2017 02:21

I wonder if it would be possible to make an easy conversion of 2cc TrainsInNML into two ideas I would like to see done to compliment other train sets.

Those two ideas being a modern version of 2cc Subway Set (the old one doesn't contain all the newly added Subway and Metro Trains) and a 2cc Wagon Set (so that older sets that don't include new cargo support properly or at all can have their wagons replaced by 2cc wagons to allow old train set locomotives to hual FIRS or ECS cargos.)

I currently don't have a compiling environment setup as its a lot of work for me, though I did think about perhaps just disabling what I don't want by removing certain vehicles from the main 2ccts.pnml file (where the all the #include functions are)

Would removing stuff from the 2ccts.pnml file work or would that cause issues? I haven't tried it yet myself so I wouldn't know.

EDIT : So I was successful in making a wagon/coach only version I'm dubbing "2cc Wagons in NML" or 2ccWIN. it seems to be working and still includes the region parameters. If its ok with you guys I would like to release it once I've done a bit more testing.

I've retained the credits and license files from the 2cc Trains in NML, only thing I added was that I put together 2cc Wagons in NML, so hopefully people don't think I'm the one who made all the graphics and code.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 24 Mar 2017 18:07

As long as you adhere to the license, you are free to do what you want with both the source and compiled results. Basically, with proper credits and releasing under the same license you should be fine (do keep in mind that the same license also means you have to provide the sources when requested).

Just some things to keep in mind:
Do change the GRFID, to prevent conflicts
Disable the Unit Wagons, as those do not make any sense without the trains from this set

Other than that, I do not see any problems with just removing #includes from the main file. If things are missing it just doesn't compile anymore.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 24 Mar 2017 20:35

I already made sure to remove useless wagons that can't be used without the MU's, as I only intend for 2cc Wagons in NML to include the Wagons and Coachs and nothing more.

Heres what I did just to be sure of things

- GRF ID was changed, as I already kinda figured that would be needed
- Title and description changed as well as the GRF name.
- Retained the licensing and credits (which are pasted into the read me though I think I need to write a better read me)
- Kept the Parameters because I couldn't get the wagons to appear without the region parameters
- Removed all Locomotives, Multiple Units and Metro vehicles and MU cars
- All generations of wagons and coaches are retained

I've done pretty much as much as I can to ensure that 2cc Wagons won't cause much issues, but its designed to be loaded with other train sets. Maybe i should bring back the check.pnml and some how get it to disable the GRF if 2cc Trains is loaded, with a message like "2cc Wagons not needed when 2cc Trains is loaded"

How ever I will need to make sure that when I make a metro/subway only version of 2cc Trains, I'll have to include the MU wagons.

----

As for the Metro/Subway version of 2cc Trains, I might just try putting together the typical "Metro stuff" with any other regular multiple unit stuff that is specifically used for Metro transit, like some diesel and electric muliple units that only serve local transit and not say, lesser used lines to connect multiple small towns to a city. That would constitute as a commuter train instead.

Also instead of Monorail being the default, I was thinking of making electrified rail the fall back for a Metro/Subway version so that players that don't want to use rail type with other train sets can use the Metro version with Electrified Rails instead. Though it may look a little weird having Subway trains designed for 3rd or 4th rail lines running under overhead electrified rails.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 24 Mar 2017 21:15

NekoMaster wrote:I already made sure to remove useless wagons that can't be used without the MU's, as I only intend for 2cc Wagons in NML to include the Wagons and Coachs and nothing more.

Heres what I did just to be sure of things

- GRF ID was changed, as I already kinda figured that would be needed
- Title and description changed as well as the GRF name.
- Retained the licensing and credits (which are pasted into the read me though I think I need to write a better read me)
- Kept the Parameters because I couldn't get the wagons to appear without the region parameters
- Removed all Locomotives, Multiple Units and Metro vehicles and MU cars
- All generations of wagons and coaches are retained
Sounds good. The region parameters can be easily solved by editing the regions.pnml file. Just change the last line to:

Code: Select all

#define REGION(REGION1,REGION2,CONCEPT) climates_available: ALL_CLIMATES; 
and you should be good to go. Then you don't have to change the wagon files. Or you define all regions as 1 instead of param_region_* in that file. Changing the define is also easy when I update wagons or coaches, you can just copy the updated files over the old files without breaking things (unless I add another define or modify the arguments of one).
I've done pretty much as much as I can to ensure that 2cc Wagons won't cause much issues, but its designed to be loaded with other train sets. Maybe i should bring back the check.pnml and some how get it to disable the GRF if 2cc Trains is loaded, with a message like "2cc Wagons not needed when 2cc Trains is loaded"
Such a check would indeed be handy, as there is no use to have wagons double.
How ever I will need to make sure that when I make a metro/subway only version of 2cc Trains, I'll have to include the MU wagons.
If you forget, it will not compile, as the livery overrides cannot be resolved if those wagons are not included.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 24 Mar 2017 23:46

I would rather keep the Region parameters for 2cc Wagons and the Metro/Subway set so that players can either play with everything or just the wagons or metro stuff from a select region.

EDIT : I just came up with the best Metro/Subway version of 2cc Trains!

2cc Rapid Transit For Me! aka 2ccRTFM

As I said before, I'll only be including stuff from 2cc Trains that was used for Rapid Transit use, so no commuter stuff like rail buses or long rang MU's that serve the country side or a cities suburbs as thats more of a commuter situation and not local transit.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Erato » 22 May 2017 19:56

I am currently working on freight-cars for the Modern Maglev Trains set. I was wondering if I could use the freight sprites of the GEN 5 wagons and adapt them for my own set. More specifically the container sprites.

Thanks in advance.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 22 May 2017 22:13

I dunno if this is the right place to get help with 2cc Trains Code...

I'm having a weird issue with 10/8 size electrics clipping on the diagonal views even though the horizontal sprites are just fine.

Heres the code for the EP2 bipolar which is the one in the image thats clipping.
https://pastebin.com/s2US362u

I'm 100% sure that the sprite is 10/8 size.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Voyager One » 23 May 2017 16:56

Erato wrote:I am currently working on freight-cars for the Modern Maglev Trains set. I was wondering if I could use the freight sprites of the GEN 5 wagons and adapt them for my own set. More specifically the container sprites.
Thank you for asking nicely. You can freely use anything you find containing my "sign", enjoy. :)
NekoMaster wrote:EP2 bipolar
Althought the EP2 is a Jake's baby, it's written in the file it is 10/8...
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/2cc ... ipolar.png
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by NekoMaster » 24 May 2017 06:10

Voyager One wrote:
NekoMaster wrote:EP2 bipolar
Althought the EP2 is a Jake's baby, it's written in the file it is 10/8...
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/2cc ... ipolar.png
I'm not using the 2cc Trains version of the EP-2, I'm using PackMans EP-2 which is more NARS style.

I kinda fixed the issue myself by tweeking the L12 offsets.


Though I have a new Issue that might need someone like transport man's answer.

I have a couple of GTEL sprites that consist of large sprites, like the UP Coal Turbine Sprite.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/lsyt27blx3ira ... E.png?dl=0

-or-

UP Generation 3 GTEL "Big Blow"
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t7lx175nec4dx ... W.png?dl=0

I need some way to code 3 part articulated locomotives with large sprites.

I could just code them as separate parts but I'd rather have them coded as one big long locomotive.

Hopefully someone can help me with this.

EDIT : I should mention that I'm working with the 2cc Trains in NML code which is why I'm asking here incase someone might have an answer I can use with the 2cc Trains Code
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

Post by Transportman » 29 May 2017 20:16

NekoMaster wrote:I dunno if this is the right place to get help with 2cc Trains Code...

I'm having a weird issue with 10/8 size electrics clipping on the diagonal views even though the horizontal sprites are just fine.

Heres the code for the EP2 bipolar which is the one in the image thats clipping.
https://pastebin.com/s2US362u

I'm 100% sure that the sprite is 10/8 size.
Yes, this is the best place to get help with the code.

Regarding your issue: I might have made a mistake with the offsets for longer vehicles, as I had to do those myself. Does the issue also happen with the actual set (preferably a recent nightly)? If so, it is something I should fix.
NekoMaster wrote:Though I have a new Issue that might need someone like transport man's answer.
I need some way to code 3 part articulated locomotives with large sprites.

I could just code them as separate parts but I'd rather have them coded as one big long locomotive.

Hopefully someone can help me with this.

EDIT : I should mention that I'm working with the 2cc Trains in NML code which is why I'm asking here incase someone might have an answer I can use with the 2cc Trains Code
I used articulated parts to create the whole consist, and then used the default callback to determine on which parts to draw the sprites and on which to draw an empty sprite. On the first part of a long vehicle I've placed the actual sprite, on the second part I've drawn the empty sprite.
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