[OTTD] 2cc TrainsInNML

[Voyager One]

Well, IIRC how it should be working according some discussions I've had with DJ...

- when you purchase a MU/Maglev, you immediately buy the front+rear engine, regardless of their capacity or incapacity of carrying anything (IIRC, some MUs have engines that don't carry anything).
- after that, you buy that "universal" coach and basically add a coach between your engines (and their appropriate graphics should show up) - you can do this as many times as you like, there shouldn't be a limit on anything (it's up to a player if he/she wants to add a "realistical" number of coaches or do something invented)


However... if you have another/better idea - please don't hesitate to suggest...

[Transportman]

Well, IIRC how it should be working according some discussions I've had with DJ...

- when you purchase a MU/Maglev, you immediately buy the front+rear engine, regardless of their capacity or incapacity of carrying anything (IIRC, some MUs have engines that don't carry anything).
- after that, you buy that "universal" coach and basically add a coach between your engines (and their appropriate graphics should show up) - you can do this as many times as you like, there shouldn't be a limit on anything (it's up to a player if he/she wants to add a "realistical" number of coaches or do something invented)


However... if you have another/better idea - please don't hesitate to suggest...

Sounds good to me, and doable. To instantly buy front+rear, I will have to set the dual_headed property, but I don't expect a lot of problems with that (some minor modifications).

Only minor issue I have with the "universal" coach at this moment, is that in the old version you buy a very expensive engine, and then a cheap wagon with the same properties and even adding power and stuff. I also can't code around that, as the cost_factor can only be changed before purchase (as far as I can see). I can increase the cost_factor for the different versions, but for the general rail-unit that breaks, as the cheapest MU under default conditions in the old set is something like 14.000 GBP (CSD M131), and the most expensive something like 730.000 GBP (TGV Duplex), so there I can't balance.

[Purno]

Why did we have a powered MU wagon anyways? I thought the whole point was to let players decide to have one long consist (with one dual-headed engine, cheaper but less power) or to have multiple shorter consists (with multiple dual-headed engines, more expensive but also more power). Kinda like with TT default engines.

[FooBar]

I've always thought the special MU wagon to be a bit redundant. I think you can get a similar cost scheme with just a normal wagon that works everywhere.

Take for instance an 8-piece MU as default and change the cost of the main unit such that main unit + wagons will be as expensive as it is now. If a user chooses to make a train shorter, then he gets a better power-to-weight ratio, but less capacity and thus less income. If the user makes the train longer, then there's a worse power-to-weight ratio, but more income. If he wishes to improve the power-to-weight ratio, then he can choose to buy a second main unit. Substitute he with she where applicable.

[Transportman]

I've always thought the special MU wagon to be a bit redundant. I think you can get a similar cost scheme with just a normal wagon that works everywhere.

MU wagon or normal wagon doesn't really matter that much. Code-wise it is a bit easier if there is a special MU wagon as each MU then needs just one livery override block, and it is a bit easier to understand for users as there is just a single wagon that they can use for MUs, while with a normal wagon that might be less clear.

[TinyMusic]

I'm always thinking of recolouring the 2cc trainset to real-life colours, and making an NML version seem to make that a lot easier.

[kamnet]

Then it wouldn't be the 2cc trainset anymore, would it?

[Transportman]

I'm always thinking of recolouring the 2cc trainset to real-life colours, and making an NML version seem to make that a lot easier.

That would be possible, just replace the 2cc graphics with the real-life colours and compile it again (when this set is finished). You could also try it automatically using recolour sprites, but the result might be less.

[TinyMusic]

Then it wouldn't be the 2cc trainset anymore, would it?

It would still go as 'Trains of the World,' right?

[Purno]

I'm always thinking of recolouring the 2cc trainset to real-life colours, and making an NML version seem to make that a lot easier.

It's been asked a few times in the past. Apparently there's some desire for it. The 2cc Trainset sets aside realism though, in favor of easy gameplay. There's plenty of realistic trainsets around, which is why I've never considered making the 2cc Trainset in real colors.

Of course you're free to do so. But I'm not sure having 2 seperate GRFs is the best option. Perhaps some kind of cooperation might end up with a better result, such as a parameter.

[Transportman]

Perhaps some kind of cooperation might end up with a better result, such as a parameter.

If the sprites (or a list of recoloursprites like this)are there, I am willing to incorporate it in this set with a parameter.

[FooBar]

and it is a bit easier to understand for users as there is just a single wagon that they can use for MUs, while with a normal wagon that might be less clear.

I disagree there, but let's agree to disagree
After all I don't know of any complaints from users and if it's easier to code then why not.

[juzza1]

If the sprites (or a list of recoloursprites like this)are there, I am willing to incorporate it in this set with a parameter.

Even better - parameter and refittable (via cargo_subtype) to realistic or 2cc. This way you'll never need to restrict yourself on your current game.

And for what it's worth, I'm all for realistic livery even in sets which do not try to be realistic otherwise.

[Voyager One]

I'm always thinking of recolouring the 2cc trainset to real-life colours, and making an NML version seem to make that a lot easier.

That would be possible, just replace the 2cc graphics with the real-life colours and compile it again (when this set is finished). You could also try it automatically using recolour sprites, but the result might be less.

Auto-recolor would not result in real liveries as many liveries are very approximated, not matching real liveries 100%.

Also, I'll be honestly blunt - I'm not recoloring them... Honestly that's too much work for me to handle, I just don't feel like doing it. Please noone gets offended, I'm just not in the mood...

However, all my sprites are free for anyone to use and recolor, consider this my "licence" approval...
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I've always thought the special MU wagon to be a bit redundant. I think you can get a similar cost scheme with just a normal wagon that works everywhere.

The "special MU wagon" is there just because you have 5 generations and God-knows-how-many variants of "normal wagons" (download and unzip the pax-mail.zip file I've posted somewhere above). These "normal" wagons can be coupled to locomotives only, they cannot be used for MUs/maglevs, therefore the "special" wagon acts as a "tool to make a consist longer", nothing else. It's just one P-menu sprite representing ALL MU/maglev wagons.

EDIT: I also agree to discard "powered" wagons - I agree with the idea to have longer/less power-to-weight trains or shorter/more power-to-weight trains, it's more realistic AND it will make people think more gamewise speaking.

[supermop]

There should be an option to choose whether an 8-car MU train has 8 powered cars, 1 powered car and 7 trailer, or anything inbetween that the user may like. Whether that is done by MU as locomotive and MU wagon as trailer, or Driving cars (ends), powered center cars, and unpowered trailers as three separate vehicles, I would just like the flexibility to mix up the consist to suit each line and budget.

I also like the ability to make an 8-car train look like two 4-car sets coupled together.

[Voyager One]

There should be an option to choose whether an 8-car MU train has 8 powered cars, 1 powered car and 7 trailer, or anything inbetween that the user may like.

Sounds very complicated to code... and to play with...

My main concernes are these: How would you do it in a game? Does this ask for a new GUI? Do you do it trough refit options? If so, can you imagine how would a refit window look for a 20-car or 30-car train?

Please, can you elaborate how do you imagine this would look like, I really can't visualise it.







... and BTW, IMO it's not necessary...

[supermop]

Sounds very complicated to code... and to play with...

My main concernes are these: How would you do it in a game? Does this ask for a new GUI? Do you do it trough refit options? If so, can you imagine how would a refit window look for a 20-car or 30-car train?

Please, can you elaborate how do you imagine this would look like, I really can't visualise it.







... and BTW, IMO it's not necessary...

Not complicated at all - I could do it already if the MU wagon was unpowered - just buy one locomotive, as I do now, and seven MU wagons. Or buy eight MU locomotives, or four of each, whatever I feel like. No extra vehicles or refit options needed.

[Purno]

There should be an option to choose whether an 8-car MU train has 8 powered cars, 1 powered car and 7 trailer, or anything inbetween that the user may like.

I think that's a bit too much micro-management for a trainset which aims to be simple.

Whether that is done by MU as locomotive and MU wagon as trailer, or Driving cars (ends), powered center cars, and unpowered trailers as three separate vehicles, I would just like the flexibility to mix up the consist to suit each line and budget.

I guess the user-friendliest way to do this is to have two types of MU wagons: powered and unpowered.

I also like the ability to make an 8-car train look like two 4-car sets coupled together.

You can already do this, but AFAIK it doesn't influence the stats of the train. Because MU-wagons are powered, both the 8-car train and the two 4-car sets would have the same amount of power. By making MU-wagons unpowered, such a choice would be more than just cosmetical.

[Voyager One]

I guess the user-friendliest way to do this is to have two types of MU wagons: powered and unpowered.

I like this idea a lot. It could solve all problems with very little job and players could have all possibilities available, powered or unpowered would become a complete choice as supermop requested. Of course, the powered wagons should be much more costly to buy and its running costs should be higher than the unpowered one's too. As for graphics - no additional graphics are required as far as I see it...

[Transportman]

I also like the ability to make an 8-car train look like two 4-car sets coupled together.

You can already do this, but AFAIK it doesn't influence the stats of the train. Because MU-wagons are powered, both the 8-car train and the two 4-car sets would have the same amount of power. By making MU-wagons unpowered, such a choice would be more than just cosmetical.

In the old set you could do that by using a new engine to start the second set, and because MU-wagons were all powered, they had the same properties as the 8-car train (except for some costs stuff). And making it a choice to have a powered or unpowered MU-wagon gives the player that little bit extra to choose on, although it might require some rebalancing of the set, I don't know if the old set underpowered the MU-engines as there would always be powered wagons behind it.

I guess the user-friendliest way to do this is to have two types of MU wagons: powered and unpowered.

I like this idea a lot. It could solve all problems with very little job and players could have all possibilities available, powered or unpowered would become a complete choice as supermop requested. Of course, the powered wagons should be much more costly to buy and its running costs should be higher than the unpowered one's too. As far as graphics - no additional graphics are required as far as I see it...

I also like this idea. Powered ones can have different costs, (purchase is set in the item, running in the livery override of the engine), and no additional graphics are needed, although it might be helpful to have some distinction in some windows (purchase, depot, train information) to identify them if players want to modify their train to have more/less power. Just a slightly modified version of the current purchase sprites for MU/Maglev/Metro wagon would suffice.