Zeppelins and Other New Aircraft

[krtaylor]

Technically, a blimp is a lighter-than-air craft with no internal skeleton - basically a balloon with an engine. A zeppelin is a rigid lighter-than-air craft, in that it has a skeleton inside it to keep its shape even when it is not fully inflated.

[Patchman]

and that picture definitely had an internal frame, or the outside would be completely round instead of having a "paneled' or striped look.

I'm pretty sure it's a Zeppelin, but it could be one of the Zeppelin NT (new technology) that are being built again (in my city of birth too )

[CZAR ALEKSANDER]

hello Patchman

it is a real zeppelin from Germany 1940 and it was called Graf Zeppelin II

[Zimmlock]

hello Patchman

it is a real zeppelin from england and it was called R100 which crashed in 1930 on it way to India and it has a steel frame

This "steel"frame makes it a Zeppelin, a so called Zeppelin without frame is called a Blimp

[Born Acorn]

hello Patchman

it is a real zeppelin from england and it was called R100 which crashed in 1930 on it way to India and it has a steel frame

No

This mighty airship originates directly from the workshop of the famous Graf Zeppelin. As one of the last models built, it broke all records with respect to size, speed and transport capacity.
Despite various disadvantages compared to other means of transport, we are convinced that it will find a worthy place and many friends to go with it in this game.

'game' as in

[Patchman]

This "steel"frame makes it a Zeppelin, a so called Zeppelin without frame is called a Blimp

Not even, strictly speaking it can only be called Zeppelin if it was built by Zeppelin Luftschifftechnik GmbH (what a completely broken website!) in Friedrichshafen, Germany. They hold the trademark...

[Born Acorn]

Ooh, a webshop!

Im going to buy a real life replica of the Hidenburg

[CZAR ALEKSANDER]

hello

I'm truely soory about the mix up of pictures of the zeppelins the one I posted is in fact the german zeppelin the Graf Zeppelin II 1938. I have
inclosed in a zipped file some picture of R100 & R101


Tx

[Spaceball]

@patchman

the original Company's name was Luftschiffbau Zeppelin Gesellschaft mbH (or Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GmbH). It was founded under this Name in 1908.

The Website works fine when you have figured out how it works. You have to move on the button and then appears an Text where you have to move on it and then you can surf the subsites.

@acorn

hmm they don't have one in stock. Another TTD Player must have bought the last one just bevore you have taken a look.

cu, Spaceball

[Patchman]

@patchman

the original Company's name was Luftschiffbau Zeppelin Gesellschaft mbH (or Luftschiffbau Zeppelin GmbH). It was founded under this Name in 1908.

I know that. I was born in Friedrichshafen...

They changed their name for the Zeppelin NT, and the "new" is who holds the trademark.

The Website works fine when you have figured out how it works. You have to move on the button and then appears an Text where you have to move on it and then you can surf the subsites.

That just doesn't work here.

And IMHO, websites that require Javascript for navigation are fundamentally broken.

[krtaylor]

And IMHO, websites that require Javascript for navigation are fundamentally broken.

Well, with all due respect, I have to say that all browsers that don't do Javascript properly are fundamentally broken...

I don't know what the problem is though, every OS that I know of has at least one browser that does JavaScript OK. Linux Mozilla didn't use to, and it still displays a bit funny, but it's gotten much better and is almost 100% useable at least. IE has long done it, and MacIE is OK.

[George]

And IMHO, websites that require Javascript for navigation are fundamentally broken.

TTDPatch Wiki uses JS for comments and does not work in Mozilla. I have to use IE to send comments.

[Patchman]

And IMHO, websites that require Javascript for navigation are fundamentally broken.

TTDPatch Wiki uses JS for comments and does not work in Mozilla. I have to use IE to send comments.

True, that is quite broken too. It works fine in Firebird, anyway.

At the risk of being somewhat hypocritical, I'd say that the comments aren't really necessary, and that navigation works without Javascript.

I did in fact think about turning comments off entirely at the wiki...

[George]

And IMHO, websites that require Javascript for navigation are fundamentally broken.

TTDPatch Wiki uses JS for comments and does not work in Mozilla. I have to use IE to send comments.

True, that is quite broken too. It works fine in Firebird, anyway.
At the risk of being somewhat hypocritical, I'd say that the comments aren't really necessary, and that navigation works without Javascript.
I did in fact think about turning comments off entirely at the wiki...

I don't think comments aren't necessary. I understand, I can add my questions in text instead of comment, but I find it a bad practice

[CZAR ALEKSANDER]

hello

we would like to see a screenshot of the zeppelin in the game but not crashing on to the airport ok

tx

Tiania
Lady of Avalon

[krtaylor]

Yes, well, I would like to see a compete sprite-set of the Zeppelin. Earlier in this thread is an early version, but it wasn't finished, and I haven't seen an updated one.

In any case, no new vehicles will appear in the game until they are encoded into GRF files, which at the present time is extremely difficult and only Oracle does it. He's busy with the US set, and after that the Japan set. Owen is working on the GRF Creator tool, which will make this much much easier, but that isn't done yet.

We have too many graphics projects going. Be patient, and I will be working on getting some of them finished - first the US set, then the Japan set, then most likely ChrisCF's BRset and the Planeset. The Belgian and Dutch sets are working on a parallel path, with their own staff, so I don't know when they would be finished.

Would any of your Russians like to help draw? That would certainly move things along.

[CZAR ALEKSANDER]

hello Krtaylor:

We can draw for you but all we know is how to beta test games

tx

Czar Aleksander

[krtaylor]

We can draw for you but all we know is how to beta test games

Well, we will be needing beta testing on the US set when the time comes, but until then there is lots of drawing needed in the US set, Japan set, this Planeset (with zeppelins and helicopters too), and in ChrisCF's BRset. I know that any assistance would be very welcome, just have your people join and present themselves in the relevant thread. We have had several new people join and learn how to draw TTD sprites, with the assistance of the more experienced artists. And this benefits everybody, helping get the new sets done faster.

[shawn_ardies]

hey thanks, someone is finally making a vehicle out of the zeppelin, i had tried but i gave up after 5 minutes just looking at what needed to be done.

[kamnet]

I tell ya, it's disappointing that more didn't come out of this idea over 14 years ago.

Not that everything was lost. Eventually you did see the Zeppelin LZ-127 and LZ-129 be released both separately and as a part of the Planeset, as well as a few other airships (Cargolifter, Zeppelin NT). However, there was so much more to be discovered. And all of this before we even had OpenTTD with its literal thousands of possible aircraft.

One thing I wanted to point out. This very early discussion established the precedent of airships being coded as helicopters, mostly because helicopters were very unused and it just seemed logical since airships bob up and down in the air. This works fine for TTD since we can bend the rules, but the reality is that most airships don't work like that. While you had a few which had enough lifting capacity to be able to rise straight up into the air, the majority only had enough lifting gas so that it could stay off of the ground. The lift, and it's ability to fly through the air, was given the same way airplanes obtain thrust, and that's with forward motion to push air over and under a surface to create pressure. So, in reality, airships did operate very much like airplanes, and required an airfield or landing strip in order to do this. You certainly didn't need much, but just enough. There were just a few which offered true VTOL capability, but this didn't work reliably until the modern day.

Also, to settle the "is it a Zeppelin" argument once and for all... "Zeppelin" became a very generic term for any airship in the early 1900s due to the sheer dominance of the Zeppelin company in building airships. In particular, the area of rigid airship construction. Zeppelin had a few competitors in that area before World War I, but after there was literally no competition. It's greatest rival was Schutte-Lanz, but even then it wasn't much of a rivalry at all. Initially it was S-L who was the favored company. Their airships structures were built out of laminated wood, which made them much cheaper to build, but unfortunately had the side effect of taking on water if they were operated in wet conditions or over lakes and seas. Zeppelins didn't have this problem as they were built out of Duralumin, a corrosion-proof composition of steel and aluminum. During the war the German government forced Zeppelin to adopt some of S-L's building techniques, which actually made Zeppelins a much, much better airship, to the detriment of S-L. Schutte-Lanz tried re-starting after the war but had no buyers.

During the war, Allied forces had captured some Zeppelin's and tried adapting the technology to their own plans. This was largely disastrous, with these ships built by both British and American companies had serious flaws which resulted in massive amounts of death. On the contrary, Zeppelin's had a near-sterling record with regard to reliability, safety and passenger lives. The one major black mark on their record being the Hindenburg accident, which at the time was eventually chalked up to an accidental rip in a gas bag discharging gas and then ignited by static electricity, but today the evidence appears that it was actually a terrorist plot by Soviet-sponsored anti-Nazi Communists who wanted to make the German government look weak and inept. Which is unfortunate, because Zeppelin's director for most of it's post-WWI lifetime, Hugo Eckener, was a noted anti-Nazi who did his best to not cooperate with the government until it eventually forced him out. The demise of the Zeppelin company - and pretty much all airships - was not because of Zeppelin's safety, but politics and the alleged demand that the Zeppelin's needed to be scraped so that their materials could be used for the war.

Anyhow, there were plenty of airship manufacturers before World War I, and a moderate-but-dwindling number during the interwar years. While none as successful as Zeppelin in both the building and airline business, there were many successful semi-rigid and non-rigid/"blimp" manufacturers, among them Goodyear, which would eventually rise to dominance and eventually become the near-exclusive manufacturer of airships in the world. By the time WWII came about, it was only Goodyear that still produced airships for the war, which found their niche in air-sea surveillance and air-sea rescue. And today you've got a half-dozen or so manufacturers. Interestingly enough, that does include Zeppelin - a revived company which now makes a semi-rigid airship. It does not include Goodyear, which has now abandoned blimps and instead leases Zeppelin NT's for it's future fleet. Most airships are blimps and most are used strictly for advertising or aerial photography at sporting events. A couple are trying to re-ignite airships for cargo transport with gigantic hybrid airships - even larger than the great Zeppelins.

Maybe this will re-ignite some interest in the airships. I've been working on revamping stats for over 140 airships (including historic airships, futuristic airships, and airships designed but not built) and you can read about them in my stats shack. Practical and functional airships go all the way back to 1783 with the first hot air balloons which could carry a small number of passengers and mail, and in the mid-1800s new balloon designs allowed for as many as 50 people to be transported simultaneously for great distances. The late 180s and early 1900s gave rise to the new airship industry with powerful (for the time) engines and the ability to be fully steerable. These were not your typical state fair rides, this was serious business. Perhaps we can revive it again in OpenTTD.