US Set Development Thread

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alphanumeric
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Post by alphanumeric »

oh cool I just noticed u live in the US too Krtaylor.. maybe both of us should work on an american set? lol

their are more then just the turbotrain and contennial.. the arctic\snow set has 3 of them.. they are canada diesels.. but its close enough in looks
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Post by uzurpator »

mnorman wrote:One point about this is that the DB class 103 is an electric, and so has the entire power output of a power station availble to it, while a diesel only has the power output of what it can carry. There is also the point that a freaight engine can pull far more than an express engine of the same power, purely because the greater speed of the express engine. I have also looked for values given for the BR 103, as 14,000Hp sound very high. The only value I have found is the one in the DBSet, which only gives it just over 8,000Hp, and the most powerful diesel as ony 4,000Hp, which IIRC is less than the cut-down SD90-43s could do.
Well - the beautiful thing about electric motor is the fact that it can be overstrained for a short time if you have the power source to suck from. BR 103 is rated at 7440 kW which is about 10000 hp. But this is continuus power. One hour is higher - 103's were known to reach 14000 hp range from time to time.

As for freight engines - IORE is a 5400 kW monster, Russians use VL86 locomotive that is 5500 kW one (actually both those are used in twin sections so they are 10800 and 11000 examples). Also - VL85, weaker VL86 are used in triple, permanent consists, 15000 kW or 19900 hp - continuus, which is around 25000 hp one hour and 30000+ hp momentary. Since 1hour is more important than continuus then you get to know why 6000 hp and no more diesel is at disadvantage against electrics (6000 hp diesel is around 5000-5500 hp electric, and throw to that - 6000hp is at generator shaft, that is around 4500-5000 hp at wheels which makes it comparable to 4000-4500 hp electric, namely GG1). Besides - everywhere on the world where huge loads are hauled (Russia, China, India) electrification was used, unlike in US. And I would love to see american made electric prime movers since americans tend to build huge things.

BTW - modern electrics can use so called regenerative braking thanks to which makes sure that all energy train uses is lost in friction and air resistance. Energy potential (altitude) and kinetic (velocity) energy can be poured back to the system which cuts energy usage.
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Post by krtaylor »

It's really tough to compare the relative "power" of steam, electric, and diesel locos, because it's not as simple as a horsepower number. There's also maximum tractive effort, and low-end torque, at which electric locos are especially good because of the physics of electric motors. Josef has a fiendishly complicated calculation built into the new "realistic acceleration" model of the Patch, you just have to provide the raw numbers which are not too hard to find on the Web.

It's also hard to compare American and European locos because their performance requirements and operating environments are so very different. European systems are much much more heavily trafficked, thus the locomotives have to be able to accelerate much more briskly (from a red or yellow signal). In the US there most likely isn't any other train in the way, so the long freight can take half an hour to get up to full speed, because once it gets there it just stays there for hours at a time without stopping. Also, the full speeds are lower most of the time I think because there aren't any fast trains to get in the way of. So, you have to have a huge maximum tractive effort (to get the mile-long train started in the first place), and enough power to drag it up the mountain, but you can take your own sweet time getting up to full speed.

I'd love to help with an American set. I can't draw, but I can research and coordinate, and help identify what existing vehicles to "base" on, although that's probably not too hard. If you're serious about doing this project, I'll make up and host a table listing the trains, a photo, etc.
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Post by alphanumeric »

well this sounds good.. Im not exactly knowlagable to this game yet..with all the patches.. etc and what they do.. I still dont know why only certain engines are availbable in artic only..and not temperate or tropic. cant you have all? and also.. why only some factorys are in some types only (temperate, artic or tropic) and why not all factorys can be in ALL types of the games..

im guessing because it has to be realistic.. something I dont care about..

what I was thinking to start things off if we made our own set.. seems pretty simple.. gathering what diesels are in the Sets right now.. and combine them..

one thing I love about some of them.. are the colors.. they are perminant.. while all the cars stay your companys color (blue) the engine always stays the same color.. i saw some F7 type units already in the game.. maybe we can add perminant colors.. u know just the simple things..

I Downloaded some PCX grf editors.. and it looks VERY hard to edit colors.. let alone make a whole engine from scrap..

now I think someone mentioned american steam? this is something I know nothing about..

maybe we can make a Poll.. and figure out what others want to see..
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Post by alphanumeric »

oh ya.. just to demonstrate how much of a newbie I am.. I cant even figure out signals yet lol
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Post by krtaylor »

Wow, so many issues here...
I still dont know why only certain engines are availbable in artic only..and not temperate or tropic. cant you have all?
There's a fixed limit to the number of locos you can have in any one game, that cannot be broken. The DBSet reaches that limit. Also, for playability reasons, you don't want too many locos of similar performance characteristics at the same time, or you'll just pick one and stick with it and the others will be wasted, so why go to the trouble of drawing them?
why only some factorys are in some types only (temperate, artic or tropic) and why not all factorys can be in ALL types of the games..
In very recent Patch alphas, they can. The game random-terrain engine cannot generate the ones that don't belong, it only has so many slots and they are full, but if you have enough money you can buy the missing industries.
im guessing because it has to be realistic.. something I dont care about..
No, most of the limits are coding limits, many of which are beyond our ability to change.
what I was thinking to start things off if we made our own set.. seems pretty simple.. gathering what diesels are in the Sets right now.. and combine them..
Right but we have to ask permission first. Shouldn't be a problem. That would get 6 anyway. Uzurpator, you don't mind if we recycle the American locos from the Tropicset, do you? And you know how to assemble a cohesive GRF file, would you mind handling that? We'll get all the parts for you.
maybe we can add perminant colors
You can draw them with permanent colors, or not, as you prefer. In the case of trains that were only ever in one (or a very famous) livery, they should be fixed to that livery. E.g. the Daylight, GG1, etc. For others where there were tons of liveries, I think there should be at least a stripe in company color, for variety sake. E.g. F7, GPs.
and it looks VERY hard to edit colors.. let alone make a whole engine from scratch
Right. Not a lot of people are good at it, that's why the vehicle sets are so LONG in the making.
now I think someone mentioned american steam? this is something I know nothing about..
That can be fixed, I know lots about them and can research, I just can't draw.
maybe we can make a Poll.. and figure out what others want to see..
We shouldn't even start unless we know the resources are there. Right now there are a bunch of projects already going (Dutch set, Plane set) and I don't want to see those suspended. We did one project before that ran out of steam (East Asis). We'll revisit it sometime, but I don't want to stretch the available resources too far. If we have the people to do an American set, great, otherwise, we can just sit on it until we do. No real need for a poll, except for publicity.

To the Admin: Can we change the name of this topic to something better, e.g. "American Transition Era set"?
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Post by Flavius »

Zimmlock that is an amazing pic. The engineer is not even as high as the power wheels. :D
krtaylor could we use 'USA set', as it rolls off the tongue and is straight to the point. Unless you want to have a transitional name of course. :idea:
Definately need a key loco such as the Big Boy to set the tone, get some big iron as you termed it. 8)
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Post by mnorman »

I have begun an attempt at a big boy, making it articulated like (and using the NFO line for) the Garratt in the tropicset, but am having problems with uploding the images.
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Flavius
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Post by Flavius »

Is it of any help that there was a Mallet in Railroad Tycoon :?:
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Post by krtaylor »

Not really although you can always look at it. I can find plenty of links to pictures as needed.
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Post by Zimmlock »

mnorman wrote:I have begun an attempt at a big boy, making it articulated like (and using the NFO line for) the Garratt in the tropicset, but am having problems with uploding the images.
Cool and how many tiles long ll this machine be :?: 3 :D 8)
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Post by mnorman »

I have done the Big boy as 2 vehicles, with the tender as a third, but this will result in some interesting looks as it goes around corners (I have only done the horizontal version so far).
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Post by krtaylor »

I'm working on a reference page, listing the locomotives we want, photos, and other reference materials. It can grow as the project develops. I'll post the link shortly.
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Post by Zimmlock »

Well to have some inspiration:
Two images of the 4-6-4 express locomotive for the New York Central 20th Century Ltd train. I have no images of the coaches but i guess they are in the same livary.
Image
Image

For those who are not familiar with a Union Pacific Big Boy:
Image

And a sugestion for a locomotive just between the steam and diesel/electric time.
A rare Steam turbine design, The steam turbine generates electricety, the train is driven by DC electric engines, its a mobile powerplant.
The front part is the "oil tender" behind the cabin the turbine part and under the floor the electric engines. the radiator in the front is for the coolant of the electric engines. This locomotive was capable to produce 5400 Hp at sea level, was build at Baldwin 1947/48 was named Chessie and run for the Chesapeake & Ohio railways.
Image
Last edited by Zimmlock on 04 Feb 2004 16:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by alphanumeric »

very nice :shock:
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Post by Zoom »

Here is the data for VL85:
Axle formula: 2*(Bo-Bo-Bo)
Years produced: 1983-2000
In use since: 1986
Length: 45000mm
Voltage: 25kV 50Hz
Weigth: 288 tonnes
Power: Hour: 10020 W (13600 Hp)
Cont: 9370 W (12720 Hp)

VL85 is normally used in double-section mode, but triple is also used sometimes.
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Post by mnorman »

pictures
Attachments
Big Boy a 45 degrees (note: still with Garratt rear part, not appropriate tender)
Big Boy a 45 degrees (note: still with Garratt rear part, not appropriate tender)
BBangle.png (1.86 KiB) Viewed 12283 times
Big boy in horizontal position
Big boy in horizontal position
BB run.png (2.07 KiB) Viewed 12284 times
alphanumeric
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Post by alphanumeric »

wow looking very good.. looks like a project is starting to form =)

do you guys think a fixed color for the US set engines would be nice.. but with a pin stripe of some sorts as the company color?
Last edited by alphanumeric on 03 Feb 2004 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Louie Armstrong
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Post by Louie Armstrong »

They look really good, Nice work mate

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Post by Kruz »

How about making the white line on the Big Boy company colour and the rest of it black..?
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