British narrow gauge (preservation project needs volunteers)

Discuss, get help with, or post new graphics for TTDPatch and OpenTTD, using the NewGRF system, here. Graphics for plain TTD also acceptable here.

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Post by krtaylor » 17 Feb 2004 21:48

I recall an early posting of narrow-gauge tracks that really were different and narrow. In my opinion, this set should be combined with the BRset, since England will probably never have either monorails or maglev. That way you would have narrow-gauge, normal, and electrified, which I think would be a good combination. If you are having problems with there being not enough slots for locos, we have figured out a few ways around that in the Japan set: have two different locos with basically the same operating stats that did not overlap in real life, share the same slot, but change the graphics from the older to the newer at the right point in time. We did this with some of the Japanese DMUs; basically the newer ones filled the same performance slot as the older ones, they were just more modern in appearance. England has lots of DMUs and EMUs so maybe this would help for you.
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Post by cornelius » 17 Feb 2004 21:52

Born Acorn wrote:yessssss :!:

I have already half made a welsh highland railway carriage for myself.
A modern one? Is it half-made enough to show off?

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Post by Born Acorn » 17 Feb 2004 21:54

maybe....
diagonal view is now great

they are company colours though

now I need a cream colour for the white.
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Post by Raichase » 18 Feb 2004 07:47

For the cream colour, perhaps have a look at the cream colour from the TEE trains in the DB set, and find something similar?
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Post by Born Acorn » 18 Feb 2004 14:03

here they are, the boxcars are for the US transition set.
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Post by krtaylor » 18 Feb 2004 14:54

Can a mod move the previous post to the correct thread (the US set one)?
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Post by Killer 11 » 18 Feb 2004 15:01

he showed narrow gouge passenger couches

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Post by krtaylor » 18 Feb 2004 15:33

Oh, is that what the black things were? Sorry.
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Post by cornelius » 18 Feb 2004 21:03

krtaylor wrote:In my opinion, this set should be combined with the BRset, since England will probably never have either monorails or maglev. That way you would have narrow-gauge, normal, and electrified, which I think would be a good combination.
Actually that is a pretty good idea. Wanting a whole set for myself is quite greedy anyway :)

I suppose I should go and find out who's in charge of the BR set and how much space there might be available in it. The NG graphics would have to be tiny to show up the difference though!

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Post by krtaylor » 18 Feb 2004 21:26

Also this might be a good way to kick-start the BR set, which kind of seems to have stalled.

And yes, you would have to make the narrow-gauge visibly smaller, which would be cute and different.
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Post by Raichase » 18 Feb 2004 21:54

Born Acorn wrote:here they are, the boxcars are for the US transition set.
Uh, just a bit of commenting (no offence intended, as the shape is great!), the red is a bit too bright and toy like, and it hasn't really been shaded. Othwerwise, thats a nice wagon!
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Post by Born Acorn » 18 Feb 2004 22:04

the choice of reds available to me are limited, since there is only about five colours and I still havn't really finished them as such

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Post by ChrisCF » 20 Feb 2004 05:05

Just to say a few words on the prospects of NG in the BR set. The previous plan was to convert the extra track type for use with trams, possibly hinting to people the preference of the monorail graphics, with a replacement set of rails to come later.

My initial feeling is that it should not go into the BR set.

Reasons against including NG in the BR set:

1. Space constraints
I see there are plans for lots of these. They would take up lots of sprite space and, more importantly, vehicle IDs. NG systems have powered much more than passengers. This would also require trailers that you will need - you cannot use normal rail cars on the maglev. On the other hand, trams and LUL require only the one trailer - passengers. With graphical override, the passenger car can be changed to match the rest of the stock, not to mention provide the power - all without taking another ID.

2. Variety
LUL's range of rolling stock is rather unvaried, and many trams looked similar to each other, so things such as not including 1962 tube stock due to its similarity to the 1959 run can eliminate IDs. This sort of elimination isn't possible with the NG stuff, since there's so much variety.

Reasons for putting the NG stuff into a set of its own:

1. Significance
Narrow-gauge is a very important part of early railway history, and IMO deserves a set of its own. Some of them depict the earliest experiments with railways, especially when it comes to dealing with tight slopes and curves where standard-gauge tracks might not fit, or the vehicles might snap in two :)

2. Chances to expand
By replacing the monorail with NG, it also provides the possibility of broad-gauge systems replacnig the maglev (hint - unifiedmaglev OFF - narrow guage trains most certainly CANNOT ride on standard-gauge tracks), such as Brunel's seven-foot-six, which once lined the entire Great Western to Bristol. Come on, we are talking about one of the greatest engineers of our time here ;)

Narrow-gauge is thoroughly deserving of its own graphics set, unimpeded by the customisations of others. Plug it into the standard set, and take advantage of all the vehicle IDs you can pinch from other climates. Using it along with the temperate engines gives you British mainline stock (replace the TGV as necessary) to run on standard track to go with it. Suddenly you can simulate the Vale of Rheidol line in the "West Country 90201" scenario, by having the 101s roll into Aberystwyth's mainline platform, and a narrow-guage line alongside it out to Pontarfynach (or "Devil's Bridge" as the English insist on calling it ;) ).

I certainly wish all the best for the set, and hope it doesn't stall for months, like the BR set (d'oh!). Keep up the great work, some of the graphics are looking really good so far.
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Post by krtaylor » 20 Feb 2004 05:54

Well, I just have some trouble with the dates. It's a fact that TTD starts in 1920 and always will. And by 1920 the heyday of NG was pretty much over. They were still around from 1920-1950, but if you include only the trains found during those years, there's still most likely enough room for everything else you want. And as far as needing to have special traincars for NG, that's absolutely true, but it needn't be as many as you think. You can do it with five: passenger, tank car, flatcar (stake), gondola, and van, all but the passenger car being refittable as required. The DBXL set works this way.

If it were possible to make the years be in the mid-1800s, then it would be lots of fun to have broad-gauge, NG, and standard be the three in one set. Hey, you could have horse-drawn carts for RVs for that matter. But it isn't possible to do that with the years because of the TTD internals, and it's very unlikely that will ever change.

So, I still vote for having NG as part of the BR set. Count with me:

116 train vehicle slots
-5 traincars for NG
-10 traincars for normal trains, both normal and electrified. You can get a LOT of savings with matching-liveries and time-change-liveries, you really don't need but one passenger car ID for instance.
Which leaves a clean 100 locomotives for everything else. Oh, OK, we can allow 10 extra traincars for who-knows-what. That still leaves you 90 locos. So, 30 NG, 30 steam/diesel, 30 electrified? Seems like plenty to me.
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Post by aaronp » 20 Feb 2004 07:14

Some of my points on intergrating the British Narrow Gauge with the Br set.
Having three gauges(narrow,standard and broad) would be intiresting and extremly usefull for creating a Australian set(future plans :wink:), however If i am not mistaken the GWR had been converted to standard gauge by 1910.

I personally would like to see at least the possability of combining the sets.

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Post by ChrisCF » 20 Feb 2004 09:25

krtaylor wrote:Count with me:

116 train vehicle slots
-5 traincars for NG
-10 traincars for normal trains, both normal and electrified. You can get a LOT of savings with matching-liveries and time-change-liveries, you really don't need but one passenger car ID for instance.
Pre-Mk1 passenger cars would hold something like 40-50 people. Current Mk3 and Mk4 cars have 80 seats, and often hold more at rush hour. This was a progression which was to be included, since you might remember the monorail and maglev cars held slightly more than the standard railway equipment, and we don't have those systems in the set to provide the increased capacity. Not to mention the progression in freight vehicles which is planned to be included.

So, in summary:
(I will be generous with these figures, to allow for safety margins in case my estimates are off)

12 cargo types, possibly at least 2 types of car for each type, 24+. For argument's sake, let's allow 30 to provide a margin. Refitting isn't practical, since we do have visually different vehicles for these cargoes in real life.

LUL equipment might possibly account for 10-15 vehicles, including two passenger cars. Add on possibly 4 types of tram, and possibly Glasgow underground, and the running total is 50.

66 slots left.

Steam locos: The plan was to include a few, maybe not tens, but enough to make it interesting (i.e. a bit more than the default 3 from TT). Add one vehicle for the reskinnable tender.

Electric locos: EM1 from the Woodhead line as a starter, one of the 7x, a few of the 8x, the 90, 91 and 92. 10 maximum.

Diesel locos: Where do I start? So many to choose from, so many visual styles, so many different uses. From the light diesels doubled up, through the mainline passenger locos, to the freight monsters.

DMUs: For a long time, the mainstay of BRs local services. Possibly up to 10

EMUs: The one thing that was missing from the standard vehicle set. So many different varieties in use, of which a dozen or so key units will be chosen.

10 DMUs, 10 electrics, 10 steam locos, 15 emus, 15-20 diesel locos

That leaves us with less than 6 slots. I suppose I could throw in some brake vans.

A three-gauge set could prove more interesting, and we definitely don't have room for that in the BR set. After all, there's only one track type left.
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Post by Born Acorn » 20 Feb 2004 12:27

krtaylor wrote:Well, I just have some trouble with the dates. It's a fact that TTD starts in 1920 and always will. And by 1920 the heyday of NG was pretty much over. They were still around from 1920-1950, but if you include only the trains found during those years, there's still most likely enough room for everything else you want. And as far as needing to have special traincars for NG, that's absolutely true, but it needn't be as many as you think. You can do it with five: passenger, tank car, flatcar (stake), gondola, and van, all but the passenger car being refittable as required. The DBXL set works this way.

If it were possible to make the years be in the mid-1800s, then it would be lots of fun to have broad-gauge, NG, and standard be the three in one set. Hey, you could have horse-drawn carts for RVs for that matter. But it isn't possible to do that with the years because of the TTD internals, and it's very unlikely that will ever change.

So, I still vote for having NG as part of the BR set. Count with me:

116 train vehicle slots
-5 traincars for NG
-10 traincars for normal trains, both normal and electrified. You can get a LOT of savings with matching-liveries and time-change-liveries, you really don't need but one passenger car ID for instance.
Which leaves a clean 100 locomotives for everything else. Oh, OK, we can allow 10 extra traincars for who-knows-what. That still leaves you 90 locos. So, 30 NG, 30 steam/diesel, 30 electrified? Seems like plenty to me.
although the NG period was over, the restoration peroid was about to begin. :twisted:

also, new narrow gauge railways sprung up everywhere, where old standard guage railways had shutdown in the sixties.

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Post by krtaylor » 20 Feb 2004 15:22

I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe that it is possible for matching-livery overrides to change some of the parameters for a vehicle. That is, if you have one "generic" passenger car, it can have 40 passengers normally, but 80 in certain trains.

Monorail/maglev have to have their own carriages, I know, I was expecting that the NG would occupy the monorail slot. You could change the track graphics, but it operates exactly the same way as monorail (in that it can't share track with anything else).

You don't have to have 15 vehicles for LUL because I bet the performance characteristics are very much the same. You could have, say, three, with slightly increasing performances over time, and just have the liveries change periodically to give you your 15 different appearances.

I'm not sure what you're saying about refitting not working. If you've used the new DBXL set, you'll see that although there are relatively few kinds of freight carriage, they are clearly visibly different when you refit them. So, the flat-sided gondola is one car (actually two, small and large) but it has as many as 30 different appearances, for all the different cargos it carries, and different empty-appearances as well (the insides have different linings to protect some cargoes). But all occupying one slot.

Yes, it would be nice to have a brake van, but I think you only need one. Its livery could change over time if needed.
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Post by Oracle » 20 Feb 2004 20:23

krtaylor wrote:I'm not absolutely sure about this, but I believe that it is possible for matching-livery overrides to change some of the parameters for a vehicle. That is, if you have one "generic" passenger car, it can have 40 passengers normally, but 80 in certain trains.
I'm afraid this isn't possible AFAIK. It would be possible via callbacks, and is probably a good idea for one, but ATM you have to use different IDs for different capacities. Action 0, which sets the vehicle capacities, sets them for each ID.

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Post by krtaylor » 20 Feb 2004 20:55

Huh. I thought minime had figured out a ay to change the capacities via matching-livery callbacks. I'd better check.
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