New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Discuss, get help with, or post new graphics for TTDPatch and OpenTTD, using the NewGRF system, here. Graphics for plain TTD also acceptable here.

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Nedster87
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by Nedster87 »

Hi, just wondering that now everything is square, will this become available again? Been yearning for something like this for ages! Also, sorry if this is a silly question but any chance this will be available via the online download system?
Great work all round, looks awesome! :D
Ed
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by SimYouLater »

Why has nobody responded to this? Finescale NuTracks was a great idea and you removed it over licensing issues?!

Please, just put it back. This is unfair to the community now that the issue has been solved.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.
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kamnet
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by kamnet »

SimYouLater wrote:Why has nobody responded to this? Finescale NuTracks was a great idea and you removed it over licensing issues?!

Please, just put it back. This is unfair to the community now that the issue has been solved.
Considering that Coalroad Artist hasn't returned since his last message, I'm guessing he no longer has any interest developing for OpenTTD.

I'll disagree that it's unfair to the community. It was unfair to the contributors of NuTracks to have their license and their rights violated so casually. I wish Coalroad Artist had taken more care in respecting this aspect of our community. It's unfortunate that rather than fixing the issue, he abandoned it. But, entirely his right to do so.
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by SimYouLater »

kamnet wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:Why has nobody responded to this? Finescale NuTracks was a great idea and you removed it over licensing issues?!

Please, just put it back. This is unfair to the community now that the issue has been solved.
Considering that Coalroad Artist hasn't returned since his last message, I'm guessing he no longer has any interest developing for OpenTTD.

I'll disagree that it's unfair to the community. It was unfair to the contributors of NuTracks to have their license and their rights violated so casually. I wish Coalroad Artist had taken more care in respecting this aspect of our community. It's unfortunate that rather than fixing the issue, he abandoned it. But, entirely his right to do so.
"The community" is not just the artists and programmers. It's fair to the creators, but not to the community as a whole. If this is how you treat non-creators, then this forum needs to start seriously reconsidering how important a license truly is.

Enough, just lock this topic. It's obviously leading nowhere. I'm not happy about it, though, and neither should anyone else be. Planetmaker should be required to draw and code a replacement for this NewGRF as far as I'm concerned.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by Alberth »

"The community" is not just the artists and programmers. It's fair to the creators, but not to the community as a whole. If this is how you treat non-creators, then this forum needs to start seriously reconsidering how important a license truly is.
I don't know what you think a license is, but in our society you can enforce that by law, by going to court and throwing people in jail.

The forum hasn't much of a choice here. If you leave things that break the law on the forum, you can be accused of breaking the law as well, since you helped in distributing the contents, and you willingly did nothing to stop it from happening.

Likely people will not actually go to jail, but don't be surprised if the forum gets closed down, or openttd gets a cease or desist letter. At that point, it's game over, there is no community any more.
Being a retired OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.
SimYouLater
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by SimYouLater »

Alberth wrote:
"The community" is not just the artists and programmers. It's fair to the creators, but not to the community as a whole. If this is how you treat non-creators, then this forum needs to start seriously reconsidering how important a license truly is.
I don't know what you think a license is, but in our society you can enforce that by law, by going to court and throwing people in jail.

The forum hasn't much of a choice here. If you leave things that break the law on the forum, you can be accused of breaking the law as well, since you helped in distributing the contents, and you willingly did nothing to stop it from happening.

Likely people will not actually go to jail, but don't be surprised if the forum gets closed down, or openttd gets a cease or desist letter. At that point, it's game over, there is no community any more.
Fine, but that doesn't make it fair, just legal. Don't go throwing words around where they don't belong.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.
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kamnet
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by kamnet »

SimYouLater wrote:If this is how you treat non-creators, then this forum needs to start seriously reconsidering how important a license truly is.

Enough, just lock this topic. It's obviously leading nowhere. I'm not happy about it, though, and neither should anyone else be. Planetmaker should be required to draw and code a replacement for this NewGRF as far as I'm concerned.
We, as a community, including non-artists, long ago decided that licenses and respecting them was VERY important. More importantly, the individuals who are responsible for keeping this community running determined that respecting licenses was one of their most important duties.

Nobody here - creators, non-creators, administrators - is owed anything. We have rules in place in order to protect all of our users, because we respect our users. It's why the community has lasted as long as it has.

If you're not happy about it, then how about YOU fix it? Draw the graphics yourself. :)
Alberth
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by Alberth »

SimYouLater wrote:Fine, but that doesn't make it fair, just legal. Don't go throwing words around where they don't belong.
So "fair" is when you get wish, while walking over the wishes of the contributors of NuTracks, that expressed that their graphics may be re-used, but should be published, by means of a license?

[There are other licenses that are more permissive, so they could have used that instead, but they didn't. So it's really their wish.]


What message do you think those contributors get here? Or any other artist publishing work here?
"Please publish your work, you can express what the conditions of use are, but we won't care and do whatever we please, anyway"?

How many of those active artists do you think will like that?



I don't know about you, but if people use my work, but ignore my wishes, I will find a better place elsewhere very fast, where my work is both appreciated and respected.
Being a retired OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.
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piratescooby
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by piratescooby »

Any chance of adding a set of rails similar to the pic .
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SimYouLater
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by SimYouLater »

andythenorth wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:Fine, but that doesn't make it fair, just legal
Silly old bean. :D Check the warranty on life, there's no "guaranteed to be fair" clause.
You don't want to go there with me. Drop it.
Alberth wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:Fine, but that doesn't make it fair, just legal. Don't go throwing words around where they don't belong.
So "fair" is when you get wish, while walking over the wishes of the contributors of NuTracks, that expressed that their graphics may be re-used, but should be published, by means of a license?

[There are other licenses that are more permissive, so they could have used that instead, but they didn't. So it's really their wish.]


What message do you think those contributors get here? Or any other artist publishing work here?
"Please publish your work, you can express what the conditions of use are, but we won't care and do whatever we please, anyway"?

How many of those active artists do you think will like that?



I don't know about you, but if people use my work, but ignore my wishes, I will find a better place elsewhere very fast, where my work is both appreciated and respected.
Fair is ensuring that you don't make something that is illegal and present to the community, only to have someone else take it away because you didn't follow your own choice of license. In addition, if you as a creator want to make your license that strict, then don't release it at all and just use it personally like plenty of interesting NewGRFs in screenshots which will never see the light of day thanks to the creator's wishes. At this point, coalroads should never have bothered releasing the NewGRF in the first place.
kamnet wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:If this is how you treat non-creators, then this forum needs to start seriously reconsidering how important a license truly is.

Enough, just lock this topic. It's obviously leading nowhere. I'm not happy about it, though, and neither should anyone else be. Planetmaker should be required to draw and code a replacement for this NewGRF as far as I'm concerned.
We, as a community, including non-artists, long ago decided that licenses and respecting them was VERY important. More importantly, the individuals who are responsible for keeping this community running determined that respecting licenses was one of their most important duties.

Nobody here - creators, non-creators, administrators - is owed anything. We have rules in place in order to protect all of our users, because we respect our users. It's why the community has lasted as long as it has.

If you're not happy about it, then how about YOU fix it? Draw the graphics yourself. :)
Why should I when they already exist? Why should I when coalroads did not retract the NewGRF himself, but instead it was removed by the administration? Yeah, I've got a NewGRF of my own in the works, a Town Name Set. First alpha test version is ready but I wouldn't dare upload it without making sure it won't be deleted on me if I take a break for a while or decide not to come back. How is that "fair to creators", when this topic suggests he never once intended to break any laws and one little mistake results in the community being deprived of the project?
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.
Alberth
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by Alberth »

SimYouLater wrote:Why should I when coalroads did not retract the NewGRF himself, but instead it was removed by the administration?
I am quite sure he was politely asked by PM first. Not everything that is done is also mentioned in the public forums.

But if he doesn't react, and doesn't fix things, there are no alternative options any more.
SimYouLater wrote:Yeah, I've got a NewGRF of my own in the works, a Town Name Set. First alpha test version is ready but I wouldn't dare upload it without making sure it won't be deleted on me if I take a break for a while or decide not to come back.
The only reason it was deleted is because he re-used work with a GPL license. By doing that, he agreed on those terms. Obviously, he then also have to follow them. If he refuses to do that, it's basically game over.

Note this is not different from buying something in a shop. By buying it, you agree on the terms of the sale. You cannot later decide to do whatever you please.


If you make a Town Name Set by extending work from others, you're bound by the conditions of the source set. If you make it from scratch, you can have your own conditions of use (but please make sure you do explicitly tell them).

While it's extremely useful for the project that you give the source along with the NewGRF, and use the GPL license to make sure your work and all future works will stay available for fixing and further enhancements long after you have gone, it's not a requirement for publishing. In the end it's your decision, and that will be respected just like the wishes of the source set used by colroads is respected.
Being a retired OpenTTD developer does not mean I know what I am doing.
SimYouLater
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by SimYouLater »

Alberth wrote:
SimYouLater wrote:Why should I when coalroads did not retract the NewGRF himself, but instead it was removed by the administration?
I am quite sure he was politely asked by PM first. Not everything that is done is also mentioned in the public forums.

But if he doesn't react, and doesn't fix things, there are no alternative options any more.
SimYouLater wrote:Yeah, I've got a NewGRF of my own in the works, a Town Name Set. First alpha test version is ready but I wouldn't dare upload it without making sure it won't be deleted on me if I take a break for a while or decide not to come back.
The only reason it was deleted is because he re-used work with a GPL license. By doing that, he agreed on those terms. Obviously, he then also have to follow them. If he refuses to do that, it's basically game over.

Note this is not different from buying something in a shop. By buying it, you agree on the terms of the sale. You cannot later decide to do whatever you please.


If you make a Town Name Set by extending work from others, you're bound by the conditions of the source set. If you make it from scratch, you can have your own conditions of use (but please make sure you do explicitly tell them).

While it's extremely useful for the project that you give the source along with the NewGRF, and use the GPL license to make sure your work and all future works will stay available for fixing and further enhancements long after you have gone, it's not a requirement for publishing. In the end it's your decision, and that will be respected just like the wishes of the source set used by colroads is respected.
Look, just to be clear, I have not seen this kind of license protection in any other modding community, and that is why it is so upsetting. You don't see people "unreleasing" Skyrim mods from Nexus or Steam Workshop, or people having Unitale files taken down. You can't/couldn't do this in any other modding community that exists or has existed, whether it be for Grand Theft Auto V or Sim City 4 or FreeCiv, without attracting some serious negative attention. I can't tell you what to do, but I can be very unhappy that you've chosen to be the exception to this unwritten rule of modding. Stealing happens all the time in those communities, but it isn't a problem because everyone who is an active member knows who was the original author and makes sure they get the lion's share of credit for their work. If something has been reuploaded without permission, and their is a ratings system, the file will have an extremely low score while the original author's upload will have the score it deserves, usually around 3-5 stars or equivalent.

If I'm wrong about the above paragraph, then so be it, because that's just what I've observed and I'm not 100% certain of it. I'm just saying this community feels like a stick in the mud compared to other game communities.
Licenses for my work...
You automatically have my permission to re-license graphics or code by me if needed for use in any project that is not GPL v2, on the condition that if you release any derivatives of my graphics they're automatically considered as ALSO GPL v2 (code may remain unreleased, but please do provide it) and carry this provision in GPL v2 uses.
Please ask someone in-the-know to be sure that the graphics are done by me. Especially TTD-Scale, long story.
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GarryG
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by GarryG »

Hi fellas,

I was communicating with Coalroad Artist and his last message I received from him was back in February 2016 ..

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Garry,

You're welcome to do those actions and use all my sprites. Good luck with it all. I'm leaving the forums as I have a lot on my plate (including a business to run), and this forum is a bit of distraction for me, haha. I will continue to play the game and have been having much fun using your graphics - especially the rivers/ culverts - grand idea!

Cheers.

CRA
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another message I received from him saying he lost a lot of his work due to a hard drive crash so could be why this rail set was not finished and made available.
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by luxtram »

Can we, given the licence of the Nu-tracks, GarryG last message and last public message of coalroads artist (viewtopic.php?p=1163681#p1163681), extract the sprites from the last removed newgrf and fix the issue?
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kamnet
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by kamnet »

I don't know how other communities moderate themselves. Nor should I necessarily care. TT-Forums is moderated the way they are specifically to meet the needs of the community as a whole. There was a time where we didn't worry about licenses. And because of that, much of our community became fractured, and many fine people left because they felt their contributions were not being respected.

That file no longer exists on the forums. It's not hidden, it's deleted. Administrators do not keep copies of infringing content that's deleted. Why would they? If they had a copy of it then they'd be in violation of the license as well.

It's clear that Coalroad isn't coming back, and it's his job to fix his mistake and re-post his works properly. But if somebody else still has his sprites, and wants to reuse them per his permission, and distribute them properly per GPL, then that's fine and dandy, somebody else can do it.

This thread should be locked.
luxtram
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Re: New finescale tracks for Nu-tracks

Post by luxtram »

kamnet wrote:I don't know how other communities moderate themselves. Nor should I necessarily care. TT-Forums is moderated the way they are specifically to meet the needs of the community as a whole. There was a time where we didn't worry about licenses. And because of that, much of our community became fractured, and many fine people left because they felt their contributions were not being respected.

That file no longer exists on the forums. It's not hidden, it's deleted. Administrators do not keep copies of infringing content that's deleted. Why would they? If they had a copy of it then they'd be in violation of the license as well.

It's clear that Coalroad isn't coming back, and it's his job to fix his mistake and re-post his works properly. But if somebody else still has his sprites, and wants to reuse them per his permission, and distribute them properly per GPL, then that's fine and dandy, somebody else can do it.

This thread should be locked.
Alright, if somebody can contact coalroad, please ask for permission.
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