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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:51 am 
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Dear all,

I just released the second alpha of the Dutch Tracks newgrf. It is available through the ingame content download. The release topic can be found here.

[Archive]
It has been discussed a number of times in the various Dutch NewGRF-topics and I'm happy to announce that I (more or less) started the development of the
Dutch Tracks.

Since development has just started, there is no code to show yet, and it is very likely that before there is a final version compatibility with older versions will be broken a number of times, so even when there is code don't start a long running game with it right away. I also have to figure out a number of things about NML (sprite order and track compatibility stuff) and other things (DevZone working).

I don't have a roadmap or something, but first thing I want to get is the basic code for a small number of tracks, and work from there by fixing properties and other things. Of course somewhere along the way graphics have to be added, if you want to help and provide them, just drop a message here. I might not pick that one up right away, since I have to figure out the sprite order I have to supply to NML.

Development will take place on the DevZone, so bug reports and stuff can go there: DevZone. At this moment it is still empty, but that is something I'm working on :p. The license will be GPL v2.

Last but not least, I want to thank FooBar for setting up the project on the DevZone and his great work on the other Dutch NewGRF's, which inspired me to work on this.[/Archive]

Update 03-04-2012: Graphics wanted, take a look here for the message

Update 12-07-2012: And we're back, the set is no longer on hold, a playable release will be created using graphics from other track sets that are GPL v2 and will be available in the coming weeks. The ultimate goal still is to have different graphics compared to other sets, but this way a playable release can be made. See this post and further.

Update 23-07-2012: r85 contains different graphics for the different tracks, but since the DevZone hasn't compiled it while it is in the repo already for some days, here is a manual build to play with. The version is fully playable, but it has some things I want to do before labeling it an official release (Like checking the naming of the menus in the game). If you find bugs, please post them on the Bug Tracker on the DevZone. The graphics are from NuTracks 1.1.2, made by Oberhümer.

Update 16-09-2012: First alpha release for 0.1.0.

Update 26-09-2014: Second alpha release for 0.1.0.


Attachments:
dutchtracks-0.1.0-alpha2.tar [150 KiB]
Downloaded 148 times

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Last edited by Transportman on Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:07 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Good to see the Dutch invading the Graphics Development forum :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:51 pm 
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Dutch vs TARS :P

I didn't think it was possible for another set to have more threads than I have :P

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:38 pm 
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Already looking forward to the results :)

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:31 pm 
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I think BRSet/BROS/Britrains claims that title :P

How many threads has that had over the years?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Leanden wrote:
I think BRSet/BROS/Britrains claims that title :P

How many threads has that had over the years?


I think they had more external forums than threads at this forum. :mrgreen:

Anyways, about this Trackset, what railtypes are being planned (in addition to the normal unelectrified / electrified track)? I assume metro tracks will be there?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Purno wrote:
I assume metro tracks will be there?

I'd prefer not to make it as big as for instance nutracks. Just a handful of tracks, including Metro and HSL. And then perhaps two variants of each unelectrified and electrified: a cheaper one with a low speed limit (e.g. 80 km/h) and an expensive one with a high speed limit (e.g. 160 km/h). HSL will then have no speed limit. In early games only the low speed tracks will be available, forcing you to upgrade them at some point.

IMO more than that is not needed to have great fun with a trackset, without being overwhelmed with options that are visually very hard to tell apart.

But that's my opinion. I'm not making this. :D

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:00 pm 
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I think there can be three ways you can make the set.

Idea 1:

Yard rail. (40km/h Maybe 80) VERY cheap, because it's lacking ATB :P
Mainline (160km/h) Normal priced
Highspeed rail (unlimited) Expensive
Metro Rails

Idea 2:

You could make rails According to the ATB codes And add as an Extra HSL/Betuwe route rails.
(Would give lots of options of track types)

Idea 3:

Make 1500V DC and 25kV AC rails. Something with railtypes maybe is possible. So a 1700 will only run Classical lines and not the betuwe or HSL lines.

You could make something like this then:

Classical lines (1500V/Unelectrified, 160km/h). Introduction: Normal: from start, Erails: From around 1908 (opening hofpleinlijn)
Highspeedlines (25kV, unlimited) Introduction: 1995(introduction TGV in NL) or 2000 (Start building HSL), Or 2009 (opening HSL)
Freight Lines (betuwe route) (25kV, 120km/h) can be used as cheaper 25kV rails. Introduction: 1990 (plans) or 1998(start building) or 2007 (opening)
Metro Rails (750V, 120km/h?)
Optional: The cheap yard tiles.

With the last you could use different fences for the Betuwe route and Highspeed routes. Especially the betuwe route got some cool fencing in real.


I personally would prefer the last idea. But I think it will need some code in the dutch trainset too.
All ideas can do with only 5 track types.

Edit:
Add planning too like in the newer nu tracks. I like to use them, especially since they are a brown dirt line which can be used as old raillines which have been abandoned, great for eyecandy.

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Last edited by jor[D]1 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:05 pm 
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I think I like idea 1 the most, just to keep things simple.. :)
Also, rail types should be clearly distinguishable!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:09 pm 
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KasperVld wrote:
I think I like idea 1 the most, just to keep things simple.. :)

I like it sort of. I don't think you should players lay 160 km/h tracks in the 1880's. Better tracks should become available gradually. And perhaps even wooden track for early trains in mines.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:12 pm 
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How about narrow gauge? Is there much of that in Dutchland?

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:15 pm 
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The only narrowgauge in NL were some industrial (700mm). Like brick works and dune tracks. No big lines have existed, and they nerver transported passengers with it as far as I know. Nowadays there is a national narrowgauge museum, but they display only industrial loco's and builded some carriages them selves.
PS. The first NL trains ran on broad gauge

Hyronymus wrote:
KasperVld wrote:
I think I like idea 1 the most, just to keep things simple.. :)

I like it sort of. I don't think you should players lay 160 km/h tracks in the 1880's. Better tracks should become available gradually. And perhaps even wooden track for early trains in mines.

Those fast trains only come around 1930/1940 so no problem with that. I think you should develop this set with the dutch trainset in your mind, and don't see a reason for wooden :shock: rails.

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Last edited by jor[D]1 on Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:15 pm 
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KasperVld wrote:
Already looking forward to the results :)


Thanks for the kind words. As long as I don't have to draw it is going to look fine. Spriteorder I almost figured out, so tracks you build to the North also will be drawn to the north :p

Purno wrote:
Leanden wrote:
I think BRSet/BROS/Britrains claims that title :P

How many threads has that had over the years?


I think they had more external forums than threads at this forum. :mrgreen:

Anyways, about this Trackset, what railtypes are being planned (in addition to the normal unelectrified / electrified track)? I assume metro tracks will be there?


For the railtypes I currently have the list provided by FooBar in this post as planned. So that is:
FooBar wrote:
IMO it needs only four track types:
- unelectrified, max 140 km/h
- 1.5 kV DC overhead, max 160 km/h
- 750 V DC third rail, max 100 km/h
- 25 kV AC overhead, max 300 km/h
Local speed limits should not be implemented via track type, but rather via train orders.


FooBar wrote:
Purno wrote:
I assume metro tracks will be there?

I'd prefer not to make it as big as for instance nutracks. Just a handful of tracks, including Metro and HSL. And then perhaps two variants of each unelectrified and electrified: a cheaper one with a low speed limit (e.g. 80 km/h) and an expensive one with a high speed limit (e.g. 160 km/h). HSL will then have no speed limit. In early games only the low speed tracks will be available, forcing you to upgrade them at some point.

IMO more than that is not needed to have great fun with a trackset, without being overwhelmed with options that are visually very hard to tell apart.

But that's my opinion. I'm not making this. :D


But I am :p My opinion is also more or less along this line.

jor[D]1 wrote:
I think you could do something like this:
I think there can be three ways you can make the set.

Idea 1:

Yard rail. (40km/h Maybe 80) VERY cheap, because it's lacking ATB :P
Mainline (160km/h) Normal priced
Highspeed rail (unlimited) Expensive
Metro Rails

Idea 2:

You could make rails According to the ATB codes And add as an Extra HSL/Betuwe route rails.
(Would give lots of options of track types)

Idea 3:

Make 1500V DC and 25kV AC rails. Something with railtypes maybe is possible. So a 1700 will only run Classical lines and not the betuwe or HSL lines.

You could make something like this then:

Classical lines (1500V/Unelectrified, 160km/h)
Highspeedlines (25kV, unlimited)
Freight Lines (betuwe route) (25kV, 120km/h) can be used as cheaper 25kV rails.
Metro Rails (750V, 120km/h?)
Optional: The cheap yard tiles.

With the last you could use different fences for the Betuwe route and Highspeed routes. Especially the betuwe route got some cool fencing in real.


I personally would prefer the last idea. But I think it will need some code in the dutch trainset too.
All ideas can do with only 5 track types.


I think I stick with Idea 3, possibly combined with FooBars suggestion to have different introduction dates for different speed tracks. It will always need code in the trainset (I will figure out compatibility things to also allow other train sets without modifications to their code to run on the tracks, but that is not very high on my list at this moment). But it also depends on the graphics I get, because like KasperVld says, they need to be clearly distinguishable, so it might be that during development the set stays at idea 1 some time for playtesting until graphics are available to go to idea 3.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:18 pm 
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I would at the 25kV 120km/h to Foobars list. It will make a cheaper version of 25kV, so HSL is not nessecary.
PS. Would be cool if dutch trainset can be coded so TRAXX and Eurosprinter have more power on 25kV

You can make HSL with high fencing (like DWE tiles), betuwe route with it's sound barriar like fence. Normal rail hasn't got a fenc emostly, only when it runs next to public roads it does have.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:21 pm 
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The trainset indeed needs some compatibility added if we want to limit certain trains to certain track types (or better: keep regular trains off the high speed lines). But that's no problem to add.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:37 pm 
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FooBar wrote:
The trainset indeed needs some compatibility added if we want to limit certain trains to certain track types (or better: keep regular trains off the high speed lines). But that's no problem to add.


The probably more interesting idea than yet another differenciation wrt speeds is the one which is supposed to be followed by CETS: make axle weight a criterion and thus differ tracks, engines and more important, wagons by those. See also http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2763 for some discussion - though on the track side no work has been done yet as far as I know.

EDIT: see also the track type overview: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... li=1#gid=9

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Like your idea about axle weight. But most of ordinary dutch tracks have the same load, (I think it is 22Ton or something like that)
It would make a very nice difference between betuwe route (Higload, low speed, 25kV) and HSl line (Low load, High speed, 25kV)

A map of maximum axle loads:
http://jeroen1985.webs.com/MDI/Aslasten ... ichten.pdf

The C2 lines (gray) are not/incidential used by freight trains. Trains with higher axle load get a slower maximum speed.

For simplicity, The best would be to just add classical 1500V lines, were all dutch trainset trains can run. And HSL/Betuwe route with some limitations.

PS. Coolest would be to let the speed depend on the axle load, like the map.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:16 pm 
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planetmaker wrote:
See also http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/2763 for some discussion - though on the track side no work has been done yet as far as I know.

EDIT: see also the track type overview: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... li=1#gid=9

Ticket 3615 from the Japanese Tracks ist probably a better reference at this moment, the CETS ticket has outdated labels.

-- Michael Lutz


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Transportman wrote:
For the railtypes I currently have the list provided by FooBar in this post as planned. So that is:
FooBar wrote:
IMO it needs only four track types:
- unelectrified, max 140 km/h
- 1.5 kV DC overhead, max 160 km/h
- 750 V DC third rail, max 100 km/h
- 25 kV AC overhead, max 300 km/h
Local speed limits should not be implemented via track type, but rather via train orders.



I don't think you need to set speed limits via the track types, as the trains already have a limited speed limit, especially speed limits on unelectrified and metro tracks seems silly.

And, if we go through with this idea, I actually need to figure out what trains run on what system, so extra depot information on the trains would be appreciated.

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All my graphics are licensed under GPL. "Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else."


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:09 pm 
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Purno wrote:
Transportman wrote:
For the railtypes I currently have the list provided by FooBar in this post as planned. So that is:
FooBar wrote:
IMO it needs only four track types:
- unelectrified, max 140 km/h
- 1.5 kV DC overhead, max 160 km/h
- 750 V DC third rail, max 100 km/h
- 25 kV AC overhead, max 300 km/h
Local speed limits should not be implemented via track type, but rather via train orders.



I don't think you need to set speed limits via the track types, as the trains already have a limited speed limit, especially speed limits on unelectrified and metro tracks seems silly.

And, if we go through with this idea, I actually need to figure out what trains run on what system, so extra depot information on the trains would be appreciated.


It's not hard to figure out what trains run on what system. You will probably know most of them by hard, if not all.

Or do you mean when playing?

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