DACH Sets - Standard Gauge/Narrow Gauge : Development Thread

[Valle]

Wow, what a beautiful set! Thank you very much for this addition - it will definitely be in my next game.
Regarding the beautifully working cab control trains, I've got a little question: Is it possible to code the locomotives and cab controls to allow sandwich compositions to either simulate a failure of the cab control car or just create a more realistic composition?

I know that Class 143 sandwiches are used to speed up the schedules on some lines (as spares for the delayed Talent 2 delivery for example), but that's not exactly what I mean as they mostly leave out the cab control car. I regularly see Class 218 + double decker + double decker + double decker + double decker + cab control + Class 218 sandwiches on the KBS 750. Today, I saw such a composition including a cab control car featuring a pair of 143s (the trailing one with the pantographs down) and "Silberling" coaches. Ideally, the train would not change directions the classic OTTD way and just turn around as it's currently the case with the cab control cars.

[Dwight_K._Schrute]

Thank you for your kind words, Valle. I'm glad you like it.

But unfortunately I think that we have to live with it the way it is. It's feasible enough to code those push pull trains in this way. There is already a lot to think about. When the train changes its direction all the coaches have to be adjusted as well. For example see the railjet with 3 kinds of coaches. The other trains have two types of coaches normally.

Although it would be possible to code just this combination as a whole train (like the Swiss Re450)

Class 218 + double decker + double decker + double decker + double decker + cab control + Class 218

But thats a lot of work, too and where to you begin and where do you stop. There are endless possibilities of combinations. Sometimes we have to live with the restrictions of OpenTTD

[Valle]

Thank you for your kind words, Valle. I'm glad you like it.

But unfortunately I think that we have to live with it the way it is. It's feasible enough to code those push pull trains in this way. There is already a lot to think about. When the train changes its direction all the coaches have to be adjusted as well. For example see the railjet with 3 kinds of coaches. The other trains have two types of coaches normally.

Although it would be possible to code just this combination as a whole train (like the Swiss Re450)

Class 218 + double decker + double decker + double decker + double decker + cab control + Class 218

But thats a lot of work, too and where to you begin and where do you stop. There are endless possibilities of combinations. Sometimes we have to live with the restrictions of OpenTTD

Thank you for your fast reply and explanation, Dwight. Too bad that this is problematic to pull off, but in the end it's just a small detail anyway.

There are a couple of other small things that I'd love to see being taken care of - I offer my help at that, but my knowledge at coding is zero and I've never drawn any sprites, however I am familiar with Gimp, using which I created a number of skins for cars for a few racing games in the past.

1) I just realized that the DB 143 is not able/allowed to pull freight trains. This is not entirely accurate - it was designed as a universal locomotive and pulled both freight and passenger trains until the federal railways of Germany were split into subcompanies such as DB Regio and DB Cargo. As DB Regio is phasing them out en masse now, some have made their way back into freight service. DB never owned 143 001 - now it's operated by EKO for ArcelorMittal, and several ex-DB Regio 143s are now pulling freight for MEG and RBH, which are mainly owned by the DB.

2) It would be cool if all of the set's universal locomotives, like the DB 218, could be coupled with freight cars from multiple train sets and

3) The Siemens ES 64 U/U2/(U4) [->DB 182 & ÖBB 1016/1116/(1216)] should be able/allowed to do push-pull service not only with Austrian stock, but also with all german carriages included in the set as of now. DB is doing exactly that by attaching double deckers and single deck regional stock to their own twenty "Class 182" locomotives and, in case of the InterCity trains, with rented ES 64 U2's. Could you correct that for the next version, please?

[kackofant]

1st. i realy enjoy youre little trainset. its a nice addition to the dbset, which newest version shoudnt show up before the internet collapse....
2nd: how big is the chance that one of these http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/r ... 17,5773367 show up in youre set.
3rd: it is not very funny to write someone in a language you dont understand or speak, if you know that the person who are addressing speak youre mothertounge >_<

[oberhümer]

dbset, which newest version shoudnt show up before the internet collapse

Heard of CETS? (-> signature) It'll be finished when the cracks aren't too deep yet, I promise
The next month(s) should at least bring finished graphics for most Prussian trains, the code (using placeholders) is all there. It also has some neat things nobody else has at the moment.

[michael blunck]

[...] 3rd: it is not very funny to write someone in a language you dont understand or speak, if you know that the person who are addressing speak youre mothertounge >_<

http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/ exists.

regards
Michael

[kackofant]

i know it and im reading there from time to time... but the moderators seem to be rather strange and well except for youre set a and some dach progress there is nothing interesting there

@oberhürmer: at least on time per week i download the nightlys of cets unfortunately the scale of youre set does not realy fit with the other ones (but: the idea with the scale is very nice and if the set show up some locos of every periode, it becomes very interesting) und wenn ich schonmal dabei bein (may the person who can translate this properly, translate it... or may the post-imperilistic british people and the followers of there strange language learn a real one. with a real grammar part and where not every word look different but sounds the same...) the tilting sprites you use are very nice! btw. i dont think cets got playable (in the case i mentioned above) befor the new bdset
but now back to dach set...

[Eddi]

excuse me? the set is fully playable, just the graphics are missing (but this really isn't the place to discuss that )

PS: if you have some playtesting experience or other suggestions, please put them in the tracker.

[Yoshi]

0.3.0 now released!

Download with Bananas or in the dev zone:
http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/dach/releases/0.3.0/

[Valle]

Thank you for the update and all the work you put into it. I really like it, but there are still some things that I reckon should be addressed once more.
1) A probable refit bug with the TRAXX and Cisalpino cars. Changing the seating class changes the locomotive's livery to BLS or SBB Cargo, changing the locomotive's livery modifies the cars. I don't think you intended that.

I generally understand that you're mainly intending to depict the Bodensee region, but there are a couple of restrictions I reckon as being unnecessary, unrealistic and gameplay-harming.
In this set, the
- DB 101 cannot pull ÖBB InterCity cars
- ÖBB 1044 can be coupled with neither ÖBB InterCity rolling stock nor freight cars
- ÖBB 1142 can't be coupled with Intercity or freight cars either.
- SBB Re 460: I do understand that it's not used for freight anymore, but some players may want to replicate that.
- Only private companies use the Traxx P160 (BR 146) for freight trains occasionally (albeit not in the Bodensee region), but this picture of a type-146-TRAXX 2E proves it's realistic.

The same applies to the cases I posted here previously - I don't like quoting myself but I feel like I have to:

There are a couple of other small things that I'd love to see being taken care of - I offer my help at that, but my knowledge at coding is zero and I've never drawn any sprites, however I am familiar with Gimp, using which I created a number of skins for cars for a few racing games in the past.

1) I just realized that the DB 143 is not able/allowed to pull freight trains. This is not entirely accurate - it was designed as a universal locomotive and pulled both freight and passenger trains until the federal railways of Germany were split into subcompanies such as DB Regio and DB Cargo. As DB Regio is phasing them out en masse now, some have made their way back into freight service. DB never owned 143 001 - now it's operated by EKO for ArcelorMittal, and several ex-DB Regio 143s are now pulling freight for MEG and RBH, which are mainly owned by the DB.

2) It would be cool if all of the set's universal locomotives, like the DB 218, could be coupled with freight cars from multiple train sets and

3) The Siemens ES 64 U/U2/(U4) [->DB 182 & ÖBB 1016/1116/(1216)] should be able/allowed to do push-pull service not only with Austrian stock, but also with all german carriages included in the set as of now. DB is doing exactly that by attaching double deckers and single deck regional stock to their own twenty "Class 182" locomotives and, in case of the InterCity trains, with rented ES 64 U2's. Could you correct that for the next version, please?

Seeing that you added a standard ES 64 U capable of pulling these cars, the last point is largely pointless. I assume it is going to be able to run push-pull trains with all German and Austrian passenger cars for which a cab control unit exists (Railjet aside) in 0.4.0? Just one tiny wish for a livery (generic black rental livery aside): the City-Airport-Train in Vienna..

Please leave it to the player to couple locomotives and carriages as they want if it's technically possible (that means everything with a classic chain coupler should be coupleable with everything featuring a chain coupler; helptexts in the buying window can still be added to help a player at making their trains the way they are most common in real life), even if it's not necessarily done commonly in the Bodensee region or at all. This set will certainly be used outside Bodensee scenarios, too, after all and in the end "wrong compositions" cannot be prevented anyway if people use the Invisible Leading Engine, but it's not terribly fun to group trains with it.

[Yoshi]

Thank you for the update and all the work you put into it. I really like it, but there are still some things that I reckon should be addressed once more.
1) A probable refit bug with the TRAXX and Cisalpino cars. Changing the seating class changes the locomotive's livery to BLS or SBB Cargo, changing the locomotive's livery modifies the cars. I don't think you intended that.

You have to mark the coaches only. Then it works.

For futur: please make an account and add tickets in the devzone.

Thats one of the reasons, why we use the devzone.

http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/dach


I've added your suggestions now.

[Valle]

Thank you for the update and all the work you put into it. I really like it, but there are still some things that I reckon should be addressed once more.
1) A probable refit bug with the TRAXX and Cisalpino cars. Changing the seating class changes the locomotive's livery to BLS or SBB Cargo, changing the locomotive's livery modifies the cars. I don't think you intended that.

You have to mark the coaches only. Then it works.

For futur: please make an account and add tickets in the devzone.

Thats one of the reasons, why we use the devzone.

http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/dach


I've added your suggestions now.

Ah, now I understand the purpose of that. Sorry, and thank you.

[Dwight_K._Schrute]

Hello Valle,

thank you. Your feedback is very much appreciated. But it's not as easy as you might think. I don't know how much you know about the internals so I will tell you something about the push-pull trains:

They are no really feature of the game so it's a very dirty solution. Everytime the trains changes it's direction it will do it no matter what. So a B-A-A-A-A-C will be a C-A-A-A-A-B no matter what is in the code. All I can do is to switch the graphics of B and C and it will actually look like a real push-pull train. But B is still the locomotive. Althoug it has the graphic of the control car right now.

And if you dig a little deeper right now you will find a lot of cases where it gets really complicated. Imagine a german IC train with two ÖBB coaches in its consist. This is totally realistic. But this is how it looks in the game:

ic 1.png (16.26 KiB) Viewed 5937 times

ic 2.png (25.42 KiB) Viewed 5937 times

Only the locomotive and the control car switch their grpahics but not the other ones. And there are endless possibililites. The same applies to BR143 + double deck coaches + "Silberlinge" + control car. You can mix them but you get weird graphic glitches.

So the question is: What do we want from the set: Endless possibilities and a lot of "bugs" or do we want to keep both in bounds the possibilities and the graphic glitches. For me it's the latter.

[Eddi]

conceptually, as long as all vehicles are the same length, you can use var61 to also flip the middle wagons (lots of tedious work)
pseudocode (might only work with fewer than 256-epsilon vehicles in the GRF):

Code: Select all

spriteset(draw-vehicle-1) {...}
spriteset(draw-vehicle-2) {...}
...
spriteset(draw-vehicle-n) {...}

switch(PARENT, draw-other-vehicle, var61[vehicle-id, procedure(get-position-in-consist-from-end)]) {
 1 : draw-vehicle-1;
 2 : draw-vehicle-2;
 n : draw-vehicle-n;
}

switch(PARENT, push-pull-vehicle-i, consist-userflags == train-is-push-pull-capable && train-is-flipped && extra-callback-info-1 == not-drawn-in-gui) {
 0 : draw-vehicle-i;
 1 : draw-other-vehicle;
}

this needs some further refinement, and i believe procedures are not yet supported in nml, possibly this could be worked around by temporary registers, but i'm not quite sure how they work. procedure here, because position must be from SELF, but var61 from PARENT (there may be other ways to do this, involving fancy math to get the relative position)

also fancy effects like livery refits may need some further complications...

[Hitperson]

just giving this a spin now.

have to say, it is very good so far.

[Valle]

So the question is: What do we want from the set: Endless possibilities and a lot of "bugs" or do we want to keep both in bounds the possibilities and the graphic glitches. For me it's the latter.

Thank you for the explanation, Dwight. I think I understand your concerns as making all that work perfectly with cab control cars requires an extreme amount of coding, which leaves lots of room for glitches.

Just wondering.. wouldn't it be possible to only allow the cab controls to be active (or attached in the first place) if the trains are "clean" combinations instead of limiting the locomotives to very few types of carriages? Or a parameter to switch between "correctly working cab control cars" and "dropped limitations, potentially buggy freedom of coupling"... ah well, just a thought - in the end I'm just a consumer and don't know how this stuff really works. Keep up the good work, this set is definitely one of my favorites!

[rfc2795]

First: I like this set. It's well made and even a friend of my (he works for the SBB) recognize the trains. And it helps to transport a loth of people

Yet, as a Swiss person, I suggest some loks that I haven't seen yet. (I know other set my have this):
Krokodil (no English wiki entry)
Very nice look, not with the specification, but the look
Re 4/4
Often used lok even now. The normal SBB waggon is often pulled with this loks.
Ae 3/6 (no English wiki entry)
This lok was used about 74 years (1920-1994).

And what I've miss is some steam loks (e.g. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... /SBB_C_5/6 ). Has you plan for steam loks and other 'old' - as most of my suggestion are - or not?.

[Yoshi]

Hello,

Yet, as a Swiss person, I suggest some loks that I haven't seen yet. (I know other set my have this):
Krokodil (no English wiki entry)
Very nice look, not with the specification, but the look
Re 4/4
Often used lok even now. The normal SBB waggon is often pulled with this loks.
Ae 3/6 (no English wiki entry)
This lok was used about 74 years (1920-1994).

We try to work from modern into the past

so I'll look for them when I find some time...

[Spirit of Trains]

Wow, I'm stunned just by looking at this set! I want it! Anyways, I'm going to have to shift the focus from this set to a different set. I'm needing help on an American set called the Revived US Train Set (RUST for short). What this set is supposed to be is a revamped US Set with new graphics and more engines. This set was originally started by EyeMWing and I, a "newbie", decided that it would be best for the set to fall into my hands. I mainly need help from people with a vast knowledge of American railroading. This is going to be hard mainly because the United States has the longest history of railroading dating back to the early 18th century. What I mean by "the longest" is that the United States has invented a lot of engines. I plan on remaking it into a generic set, like PikkaBird's NARS2. So please, may I have some help?

[SquireJames]

I *think* you'll find that Britain has the "longest history" when it comes to railways, given that we, well, invented the things.

I can't decide whether the US or UK has the most numerous classes of engine however. I mean, I know the US is much bigger, but so are it's railways, so the same types get used over a much larger geographical area. Prior to grouping in 1921, there were hundreds of different railways in Britain, all with their own classes of locomotive and generally all very distinctive. Even post grouping, all of the Big Four, with all their plethora of types, covered less square miles than just the Union Pacific.

Anyways, all a bit off topic. Just wanted to correct that little Americanism there