Japan Set Development

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 08 Feb 2004 13:37

Gorgeous! I can't believe how fast you are!

I wouldn't have any particular problems with putting Shinkansens on the maglev/monorail track, but that would mean that we couldn't offer the Japanese maglevs. Your call.

As far as testing them, yes you can test an engine by playing with the info file (do you want to try that for us?) but you'll notice that most of the Japanese trains are not just engines, they also have matching-livery passenger cars. Programming that is much more complicated I'm afraid. Even more complicated is the fact that all the Shinkansens use contagious-power (like the ICE), where all the power is not in the engine, it "spreads" to all the cars, as all wheels on the train are powered. This also means you can't use Shinkansens for freight because by themselves they are too weak.

My list is by no means authoritative, I would be happy to take suggestions and adjust the list. I love the Japanese trains, I know there are others in East Asia but I know nothing about them. If anyone thinks a train makes a good fit, suggest it, with photo and reference links, and I'll put it in the list. By the way, we need some 1920s locomotives, the earliest steam I have is 1930 and the game starts in 1921. I'm limited by not being able to read Japanese.

way2good · Post by **way2good** » 08 Feb 2004 15:54

Hey any graphic work for me too?

Raichase · Post by **Raichase** » 08 Feb 2004 20:25

These trains are looking marvellous! I liked the first Bullet Train the best. Congratulations on your great work!

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 08 Feb 2004 21:38

Thanks everybody for the kind words...
I also appreciate observations, and suggestions.

I'll keep trying to do my best for this set.
In the meantime, the ultimate Shinkansen is here:

This one is the most odd of the ones I've made before... It will surely need a lot of work, and shall be tested, for I'm not sure what the perspective will look like, or if just yellow lines will match from cars to locomotives.

By the way, this is the very first train where I don't use previousgraphics support... It's been made start out from zero.
For that reason it will surely have a lot of defects, but let's hope we can test them as sooner as possible, so that we can see how it performs.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 08 Feb 2004 23:23

I thought on posting an image of all the current work:

Kruz · Post by **Kruz** » 09 Feb 2004 00:17

Oh I can hardly wait for this set! The trains are so beautifull! You're a true artist

SHADOW-XIII · Post by **SHADOW-XIII** » 09 Feb 2004 00:44

indeed great ... in that case vehicles will be done soon

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 09 Feb 2004 02:18

Not to be critical, but I think that on the horizontal view, all your trains need more roof on them. I think one pixels' worth, maybe two.

Are you going to try the Japanese steam, or does that derive best from MB's work?

hovering teacup · Post by **hovering teacup** » 09 Feb 2004 04:09

here are data drawn from documents and Webs.
musts are marked with *

==steams==

C means three motive axles, D four.
C's are dedicated passenger models except c11, c12 and c56.
D's are freight models. also wheels of these are smaller than those of C's.
weight and hp are usually rounded.

Code: Select all

	year	tonnes	hp	km/h
9600*	13	60	980	65	freight
8620*	14	47	760	95	passenger
c51	19	68	1170	110
d50	23	80	1500	75
c53	28	80	1550	110
c11	32	66	780	85
c12	32	50	
c56	35	38	590	75	c12 with hauled coal vat
c55	35	66	1200	110
d51*	36	78	1400	75
c58	38	60	1100	85
c59	41	80	1700	110
d52	43	84	1950	75
b20	47	20	300	45	Jinty-like
c61	47	80	1780	110
c62*	48	90	2160	110
e10	48	100

for pictures: http://www.mtm.or.jp/uslm/slphotograph/index.html

==electrics==

for electrics and diesels, class name number superior to 50 means max.speed > 85km/h
that is, those with a number < 49 are freights. (sometimes for light passenger services)

DC

Code: Select all

	year	tonnes	hp	km/h
ed10	22	60	1100		imported from US
ed12	23	60	1200		from Suisse
ed17	23	60	1240		from UK
ef50*	23	97	1670	95	from UK
ed15	25	60	1100
ef52	28	108	1830
ed16	31	77	1220	65
ef53*	32	99	1830	95
ef10*	34	99	1830	75
ef55*	36	100	1830	95
ef56	37	110	1830	95
ef57	39	110	2170	95
ef12*	41	99	2170	75
ef13	44	102	2170	75
ef58(1)	46	98	2170
ef15	47	102	2170	75
ef58(2)*	51	115	2580	120
eh10*	54	118	3440	85	coupled
ed60	58	56	2120	90	prototype of new generation
ef60	59	96	3180	100
ef64*	64	96	3470	115	standard for hilly terrain
ef65*	65	96	3470	115	standard. improved ef60
ef66*	68	100	5300	120
ef200*	90	100	8970	120
ef210*	96	100	4610	110
eh200*	2001	134	6140	110	coupled

AC

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ed70	57	64	2040
ed71	59	67	2580	95
ed72	61	87	2790
ef70	61	96	3060	105
ed73	62	67	2580	100
ed75	63	67	2580	100
ed76	65	87	2580	100
ed77	68	75	2580	100
ef71	68	96	3670	100

AC/DC

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ef30	60	96	2450	75
ed30	62	64	1300
ef80	62	98	2650	100
ef81	68	100	3470	115
ef500	90	100	8160	120
ed500	92	67	5440	120
eh500	97	134	5440	110	coupled

==diesels==

Code: Select all

	year	tonnes	hp	km/h
dc10	30	66	600		from Germany
db10	32	10	50
dd10	36	71	500
dd12	45	47	380
dd50	53	63	900		coupled
dd11	54	34	320
df50*	56	83	1060	90
dd13	57	56	740	70
dd51*	62	84	2000	95
dd20	62	55	1000	70
dd53	66	81	2200	95
dd54	66	70	1820
de10*	66	65	1250	85
de50	70	70	2000	95
dd16	72	50	800	75
df200*	92	96	2450	110

*final remark*; in the game, locomos with more motive axles should be given more power than above figures. in electric and diesel cases the second letter represents it. B, C, D,....=2, 3, 4, ...

and exploring the web I found this link.
http://www.jrtr.net/

dmu's and emu's will follow.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 09 Feb 2004 08:59

A page with loads of pics of japanese trains.

http://jazz.cias.osakafu-u.ac.jp/~uno/p ... cgi?LANG=E

Actually it's not that useful for drawing purposes, because most of the pics are only front-view, but you can take the information and look elsewhere

way2good · Post by **way2good** » 09 Feb 2004 12:01

Wasn´t there a new train in Japan which made a speed record or is it already here.
Saw it in news some time ago (maybe month ar two)

and BTW those trains look great

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 09 Feb 2004 15:06

Wow, Great research everybody! I've got some updating to do of my table...

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Feb 2004 01:25

OK, I have extensively updated my work table, in my sig.

I have added a bunch of trains as recommended by "hovering teacup." I had a few problems though, I couldn't find any photos at all of the early electrics, except for one. teacup, can you do a little more research for that? I've got a good variety of steam I think.

I didn't add quite all of the locos because some seemed basically the same and in the same year. Unfortunately, TTD doesn't distinguish the gearing, so there's no different between passenger and freight locos of the same HP and max speed.

I think I have a fairly decent spread of variety. We could do with some more EMUs and DMUs, I have some ideas there but I haven't done the research yet.

I also added pictures of two "generic" passenger coaches, for prewar and postwar. We need these to be used with any loco that doesn't have matching-livery coaches, obviously the default TTD coaches won't do at all. I can't find any pictures of Japanese mail coaches, can someone that speaks Japanese look? Otherwise we could just have them the same as the generic coaches, except with a big door instead of windows.

I think I have some good candidates for you to draw now, sanchimaru, even without waiting for MB's reply. You couldn't copy the Japanese steam locos off of the DBset I don't think, they look totally different. And of course I picked the most-different-looking ones.

Please take a look at my list and make comments. I've tried to have a good spread, both of years, and of visual variety.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 10 Feb 2004 08:25

Hey, Taylor, thanks for updating the page, it's been a great job.
Now I'm wanting to do something different, so I'll put to research with the steam locos and mail cars.
I'll keep trying looking for good pics of korea/taiwan/china trains, but actually, it would be great to get some help from native or speaker people from these languages.
Despite I can speak some japanese, actually, more help for that is welcome too.

"4 ayes can see more than 2" (and so on...)

By the way, the american train set is looking great too, I'm glad to see that there's people working togheter in this.

Kruz · Post by **Kruz** » 10 Feb 2004 08:54

http://www.pasadena-jaycees.org/japanes ... essons.htm

hovering teacup · Post by **hovering teacup** » 10 Feb 2004 14:40

hi

by re-reading my last post I found it needs some corrections.

1.- ef50 in the diesel list is actually df50. my special apologies to krtaylor (I saw your site). (corrected)

2.- ed17's introduction was in 1923. description in my doc was not clear. (corrected)

3.- year of introduction for eh200 was missing. (added)

then,
krtaylor;

I didn't add quite all of the locos because some seemed basically the same and in the same year. Unfortunately, TTD doesn't distinguish the gearing, so there's no different between passenger and freight locos of the same HP and max speed.

I admit the *final remark* above was obscure...(was my brain confused treating so many datas at a time?) it basically means giving freight loco a bonus in HP to differenciate it from the contemporary passenger model having same HP and higher max.speed.
similar consideration can apply to the opposition "hilly-terrain model against flat-terrain model", for ex. EF64 and EF65 have same specs in the above table but EF64 in the game would be allowed to have more power with either EF64's max.speed lowered or EF65's max.speed increased.
(but anyway it seems to concern final steps of the project and not now.)

and

I couldn't find any photos at all of the early electrics

here are some. electrics before EF58 look all alike except EF55 and only one lot of sprites is needed for them all, unless you take in also one or two ED's for fun.
http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~sakharov/du ... ida06.html
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:PN ... r&ie=UTF-8 (click on yellow sign after the class name)
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfis ... _en&tt=url

finally, to this question
krtaylor;

I wouldn't have any particular problems with putting Shinkansens on the maglev/monorail track, but that would mean that we couldn't offer the Japanese maglevs.

I also don't mind banishing maglevs out of the japanese vehicle set, I have never used them seriously in my games. let's wait for other's opinion.

krtaylor · Post by **krtaylor** » 10 Feb 2004 18:08

OK. I'm traveling for a few days so I can't update my site until later, but it would be good to add some more early electrics. I'm not a big fan of having multiple locomotives with slightly different performance characteristics that look the same, it gets confusing. The original game had that problem with the aircraft, currently being fixed by Dinges and co.

Why don't you take a look at the site, and do a new list of things you think should be added to what's alreday there. I know there are some EMUs and DMUs we want, such as the Odakyu "Romance" cars, and some of the sleeping-car "streetcar" liners.

Also, everybody look at the list and consider - do we have a good mix? Does it make sense? Are there major gaps, in time or in performance? Do we have excessive duplicates, so some of the trains will never be used? Michael Blunck is considering letting us use his work, but he wants a well thought out set - he's sending me an Excel program that helps analyze the spread which I will use and see what comes of it.

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 10 Feb 2004 22:14

I totally agree with Hoovering Teacup:
I really didn't like that much the Maglev...
If I used it that was just because it was very fast, but acually it seemed ugly to me.
Not only that, but you have the nuisance of changing ALL the tracks (before the patch cheat to do so instantly, off course)

I think the main problem is the forementioned "reality factor"
(Well, I don't know hwo really mentioned that, but now I did)
The fact is that nobody normally sees MagLev, so what we want is to play and use trains...

In my opinion trains are way cooler than Maglev's, so I would'nt mind having a trains-only set.

Another thing:
The newships graphic set was absolutely an improvement. In the original game, I really didn't mind making other than oil tankers, and eventually some hovercraft (just to add some "style" if you want to call it like that)
But with the new ships, you've more options to choose from, boats are more different to each other.
I'm telling this because I hope the new planes graphic set adds some interest to airplanes (I only used the Concorde, and that one with the maximum pass/mail capability)

just that by now

hovering teacup · Post by **hovering teacup** » 12 Feb 2004 12:31

here list of EMU's

1.- I basically eliminated from the list AC and AC/DC models under JNR, like class 485.(they all have similar DC models)
2.- values of hp are per motored car.
3.- max.speed of express models are very limited due to administrative regulations. technically more is possible.
4.- representative models under JNR are marked with *, but I wonder if town and suburban models have their places in the game, unless they can be given faster loading rate or something that give them reason to exist in the reality.
5.- for photo, images.google will work with keywords like jnr+151, jr+211... ("jnr" for models before 1960s, "jr" after).

and
class 40 http://moora.site.ne.jp/kumoha40/kumoha40.html
class 51 http://www.musashino-m.co.jp/magokoro/magokoro-a-45.htm
class 52 http://www.musashino-m.co.jp/magokoro/magokoro-a-38.htm
class 73 http://images.google.com/images?hl=fr&l ... che+Google
class 70 http://images.google.com/images?hl=fr&l ... che+Google
class 80 http://images.google.com/images?q=80kei ... rt=20&sa=N

town models

Code: Select all

      year   hp   max.speed
30      26
40      33  540    95
73*     41  770
101     57  540   100
103*    64  600   100
201     79  820   100
205     86  650   100
207     91  840   120
209     92  520   110
701     92  680   110
731     97 1250   130

suburban

Code: Select all

      year   hp   max.speed
51      35        95
52      35  540
70      50  770
113*    63  650   100
115     63  650   100    class 113 for hilly regions
117     78  650   110
211*    85  650   110
221     89  650   120
811     89  820   120
215     90  650   120
815     93  820   120
721     93 1170   130
e217    94  520   120
223     95 1200   130
e231    97  520   120
817   2001  820   120

long distance

Code: Select all

      year   hp   max.speed
80*     50   340   95
151*    58   540  120
153*    58   520  110
165     62   650  110    class 153 for hilly regions
581     67   650  120
183     72   650  120
381     73   650  120    tilting
185     81   650  120
651     88   650  130
785     90  1030  130
251     91   650  120
253     91   650  130
787     92   820  130
681     92  1030  160
8000    92  1090  140    tilting
255     93   520  130
281     94   980  130
e351    94   820  130    tilting
883     94  1030  130    tilting
373     95  1000  120
383     95   840  130    tilting
e653    97   790  130
283     98  1060  130    tilting
285     98  1200  120
885   2000  1030  130    tilting
683   2001  1330  130
e257  2001   790  130
e751  2001   790  130
789   2002  1250  140

shinkansens

Code: Select all

      year   hp   max.speed
0       64  1000  210
200     82  1250  210
100     84  1250  220
300     90  1630  270
400     92  1630  240
500     99  1550  300
700   2000  1500  270
e1      94  2230  240
e2      98  1630  240
e3      97  1630  275
e4      98  2290  240
800   2004        260

Sanchimaru · Post by **Sanchimaru** » 12 Feb 2004 13:08

Hi everybody!

The asian set will not only be formed by trains, also a landscape modification is required.
I found this interesting gallery, featuring pictures of city landscapes from all around the Isles.

It will be useful for anybody wanting to draw some new buildings.

I think I will put to work on them, so I'll post further progress

Transport Tycoon Forums

Japan Set Development

E4 MAX

Current work

more pics

thanks

MagLev

City Landscape

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