Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

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Which DMU do you find better looking

Poll ended at 06 Feb 2013 11:59

DE-III (plan U): http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_U
9
38%
DE-IV (Ram): http://www.stichtingtee.nl/nl/trein/geschiedenis
15
63%
 
Total votes: 24

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Purno
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Purno »

Xaxa wrote:It was indeed only the red livery, only that direction. Pleasantly surprised to see it fixed that quickly. Love the set! But goooosh is it hard to use it with cargodis with the long loading times. Before my latest game I used to combine NuTracks with Dutch Train Set, with metros that would suck hundreds of passengers in within two in-game days. With the Dutch Train Set 2 and Dutch Railroads (which I love too) that is not a possibility and all my railroads have to be four wide minimally to work with cargodis.
Are you compairing metros with ordinary trains now? Because metros intentionally have higher loading speeds to promote urban usage.
Phreeze wrote:Doesnt it depend on the type if train? Dont use tgvs if you want fast loading ;)
Loading speed is based roughly on the total width of the doors. The IRM, DD-AR have wide doors and Sprinters have extra doors, and thus load faster. High-speed trains like the Thalys and ICE have a few narrow doors (only one per carriage IIRC), and thus load slower. This is done intentionally to balance the trains and to force the player to choose between trains with high capacity (the double-deckers), fast (un)loading (sprinters) or high speed (TGV/ICE).

CargoDist could generate a lot of traffic, though I wonder if we really should try to balance this. Isn't the high traffic a part of the challenge?
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Xaxa
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Xaxa »

Purno wrote:Are you compairing metros with ordinary trains now? Because metros intentionally have higher loading speeds to promote urban usage.
I did indeed compare metros with trains, and I know why metros load that quickly and I am very much in favor of it. However, in my older games, I used to run 2cc subways from the 2cc set in combination with Dutch Trains, and I would never use the Dutch Trains metros because of their horrible loading times compared to the subways in 2cc. 14 days of loading times compared to pretty much instantly with the 2cc one. Now that I turned off 2cc Subways, I am left with the Dutch Train Set metros. This has heavily impacted my rail networks, since I am now forced to use trains from the Finnish train (read: not even metro) set in urban areas, of which the loading times are also pretty much instantly. Therefore it's more of an S-bahn, since I don't even use the metro railways anymore, which is a shame. I can't use Dutch trains either because in 1980, the quickest loading times for a Dutch EMU is 8 days too. And none of the Dutch trains really look like metros (apart from perhaps the SLT).
Phreeze wrote:Doesnt it depend on the type if train? Dont use tgvs if you want fast loading
It does, albeit that some loading times are ridiculous even with few and small doors. For instance, 24 days of loading time for the GTW 2/8 is absurd for a rural stop train like that. Even if I want to use it for those services, I'd rather pick an NS-train because it has one third of the loading times.
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Dutch Train Set Zilvermeeuw
Dutch Train Set Zilvermeeuw
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2cc Subways from the 2cc set Zilvermeeuw.
2cc Subways from the 2cc set Zilvermeeuw.
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Purno »

Different sets use different balacing methods. I see that creates problems.

I wonder, if balacing should even be done by NewGRFs. Wouldn't it be better if the game itself did all the balacing to ensure all sets are balanced with each other?
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Transportman »

Xaxa wrote:It was indeed only the red livery, only that direction. Pleasantly surprised to see it fixed that quickly. Love the set! But goooosh is it hard to use it with cargodis with the long loading times. Before my latest game I used to combine NuTracks with Dutch Train Set, with metros that would suck hundreds of passengers in within two in-game days. With the Dutch Train Set 2 and Dutch Railroads (which I love too) that is not a possibility and all my railroads have to be four wide minimally to work with cargodis.
Version 5219-132 contains the fix. You can grab it from here.

Regarding loading times: what kind of times would you like to see? Also, with CargoDist, the loading times are less of problem as the indicated times are for full unload+load, which happens way less with CargoDist enabled.
Coder of the Dutch Trackset | Development support for the Dutch Trainset | Coder of the 2cc TrainsInNML

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Xaxa »

Purno wrote:Different sets use different balacing methods. I see that creates problems.

I wonder, if balacing should even be done by NewGRFs. Wouldn't it be better if the game itself did all the balacing to ensure all sets are balanced with each other?
Admittedly, that was one of my brainfarts too. I was wondering how that would work and one my long shots was to make it depend on the size of the (train)station. Not per individual block, but between certain amounts of blocks, so for instance 1-6 blocks would be fast loading times, 6-18 would be semi-fast loading times and anything bigger would be slow as that could be considered a hub. It would make sense to not have gigantic stop train stations in rural areas anyway, and whether or not it's an intercity train that stops or a stop train, it doesn't take long to load at a rural station. Then again, if it's a small station in an urban area, it also makes sense that trains don't stop for a long time even though a lot of people get in and out. I would then indeed pick a metro anyway because of its vast capacity and fast acceleration. Maybe even have percentages per type of train: metro: 50% faster loading times, regular train/stop train 25% faster loading times, fast trains 0% faster loading trains, intercity -20% loading times and hispeed trains 50% slower loading times. That makes the loading speed a combination of station size and type of train, which sounds pretty fair. Then again, it's a long-shot, and developers would have to program all their trains into a category or add a new one (and decide the percentage themselves). The game would have an option to decide on the station-sizes themselves in advanced configurations.
Transportman wrote:
Xaxa wrote:It was indeed only the red livery, only that direction. Pleasantly surprised to see it fixed that quickly. Love the set! But goooosh is it hard to use it with cargodis with the long loading times. Before my latest game I used to combine NuTracks with Dutch Train Set, with metros that would suck hundreds of passengers in within two in-game days. With the Dutch Train Set 2 and Dutch Railroads (which I love too) that is not a possibility and all my railroads have to be four wide minimally to work with cargodis.
Version 5219-132 contains the fix. You can grab it from here.

Regarding loading times: what kind of times would you like to see? Also, with CargoDist, the loading times are less of problem as the indicated times are for full unload+load, which happens way less with CargoDist enabled.
Thank you for the fix! Now since the wall of text above is a long-shot, I would like to see loading times based on (their type of service,) capacity and top speed, rather than the size and amount of doors. As much as I appreciate reality, I think the current status does not at all interest me in using all of the available trains. I stick to using NS-trains because they all seem to have the fastest loading times. But when I have a rural service, I don't want big capacities or even NS-trains, really. I just want faster loading times with trains from local transport companies like Veolia or Arriva. There are trains that have a low top speed, little capacity and STILL have incredibly long loading times (like the DE4 "Trans Europe Express").

The way I play OpenTTD is by substituting "days" by minutes, and I can never manage to run more than one intercity and stop train service over two tracks per month/half an hour because of the incredible long loading times in Dutch Train Set compared to any NewGRF does not use different loading times. I would be one happy fella if I could crank that down to a quarter of an hour/half a month as thirty minutes per (two) train(s) is often not nearly fast enough for the passenger demand with the amount of passengers that can fit in the Dutch trains. I can run quarterly hour services with other NewGRF, that have room for more passengers in their trains as well. Loading times of more than 15 minutes/days is crazy in my opinion.
Last edited by Xaxa on 16 Apr 2014 17:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by romazoon »

if i may add, i also kind of stopped to use the dutch train set for the loading time reason too, even with the recent reduction...i haven t tried the latest nightly from today though.

i tried many set and to me the one that have the most perfect loading speed (in term of gameplay) is the japanese set with the parameter for the fastest loading speed enabled though.

It s stay simple with, it seems, only two different loading speed for passengers, one for "commuting" and the other are all the same.

Why this is good, is that when you set timetables you can more easily guess (after a few automatic timetabling and a few trial) how many ticks should be enough. i mean it s easier cause once you know the time needed you know it for the rest of your game cause trains only use two different speed, and not something like 20 different speed loading time wich are impossible to use without having to check each time how much this particular train needs. (and i m not talking of the pain when you replace a train with an another and have to redo the timetable entirely...)

Now i m not against, at all, the concept of the dutch set wich make change the loading time depending on the kind and number of doors...but that's way to many possibilities to "play" with right now. i think the system of categorie from japanese set make more sense, i guess a balance between the two is possible. i mean, i think something like 3 or 4 categories would fit already nicely to your concept, and it seems used already for some bus set (ikarus afair). let s imagine something like Metro/Local and régional trains/ emus-dmus /high speed-long distance or Even more simple something like in Ikarus Instant/Fast/Medium/Slow...

now in term of numbers... i usually always reject set that put the maximum loading time (for the slowest loading passenger trains) over 600 ticks (and i mean loading +unloading). the main reason is that i play with timetable so i allready need to put greater waiting time than necessery,especially at terminus or important hub station and with cargodist enabled ( i sometime put until 1200 ticks waiting time manually for a train able to load and unload in 600, only to be sure that my trains are not running late for too many run in a row, wich is necessary when you share tracks).

And on the subject of loading speed of freight trains, i m surprised those tends (in most set i know) to have rather fast loading speed compared to passenger, or the same loading speed...how come no sets make them slower, while they are the kind of trains that stay in station the longest anyway (don t we almost always use full load orders for freight, right ?)

voila, enough said, and that s just my opinion of course, but still, I hope it can help you guys to choose what loading time your (very nice) set could use and please somepeople (well at least me obviously :P )

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by FooBar »

Loading times are comparable to the default trains. At least, that's where we started. The recent reduction was meant as a "try and see what this does". While I meant to play a game with it to see if it was enough, I didn't really get to that.

Would halving the current loading times be sufficient, you guys think?

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Densha »

I think a parameter à la Japan Set romazoon mentioned is a great idea. For some reason the parameters of the Japan Set don't work over here but the concept is good.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Xaxa »

FooBar wrote:Loading times are comparable to the default trains. At least, that's where we started. The recent reduction was meant as a "try and see what this does". While I meant to play a game with it to see if it was enough, I didn't really get to that.

Would halving the current loading times be sufficient, you guys think?
It would be a start. However, the metros would still be useless. The metros need loading times faster than the slowest train to be worth it.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by FooBar »

Loading times of metros will be reduced equally as the other passenger trains and carriages.
If there now is a train that loads faster than a metro, then that will stay that way, because this is then also true in real life.

A loading speed parameter may be beneficial; it's not that much more work to implement than changing all loading speeds again. And with it it's a breeze to change the default.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Purno »

Xaxa wrote:It would be a start. However, the metros would still be useless. The metros need loading times faster than the slowest train to be worth it.
Metros have two main advantages over normal trains: Loading speed and capacity.
Normal trains have one main advantage over metros: Speed.

It's totally OK if there's a train which has a higher loading speed than a metro, as long as that train doesn't have a high capacity and speed as well. (Because indeed it'd make metro useless).
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Xaxa »

Alright, I get the point, halving the loading times should help a lot. There is still a big difference between the GTW (12 loading days) and the SGM-III (4 days), but it's better than 24 and 8 days.

I would in this case pick gameplay over realism, and have different types of services have the same or very similar loading times. The differences in capacity would stay then, so that you would pick a different train for urban areas than in rural areas.

Regardless, I look forward to testing the set with the faster loading times. ^^

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Voyager One »

Xaxa wrote:There is still a big difference between the GTW (12 loading days) and the SGM-III (4 days), but it's better than 24 and 8 days.
Actually that makes perfect logic:
- GTW has 1 double door per car
- SGM-III has 3 double doors per car

12:4 = 3:1 :wink:
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Densha »

I agree with Xaxa's gameplay preference.

There's is another point which makes it very difficult to determine in-game loading time. Just look at these videos:
SGM: http://youtu.be/idLFJ6gtw4k?t=28s
GTW: http://youtu.be/bOFG8ah6A44?t=1m20s

The time both trains are waiting at the station is 30 seconds. Both videos are taken at rural stations so it's a correct comparison as well.


This is a system that I personally would find to make the most sense:
  • - metro: very fast loading time
    - local trains: fast loading time
    - 'sneltrein': somewhere in between
    - express/intercity: long loading time
    - high speed: longer loading time
An addition to this could be that newer trains have faster loading times than older trains, which is true in real-life as well.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Xaxa »

Also, if you want to be realistic, there's two more reasons why the loading speeds should not just be based on the amount and sizes of doors:
- The speed in which doors open and close. A DDZ-train door closes and opens way slower than for instance a Zilvermeeuw metro door. The SLT doors may shut and open quickly, but the train cannot depart until the foot steps are also secured, which they only do after the doors are shut completely. The fact that floors are above the platform in a lot of trains also affects the speeds in which passengers can enter and exit the train. It takes longer for passengers to exit the train having to take an extra step leaving and entering the train.
- The procedures: conductors don't just close doors, the whole procedure for shutting doors for trains takes up to thirty seconds in The Netherlands. With metros, all doors shut immediately after the alarm went off.

My point is this: you cannot ever take all this stuff into consideration developing a set, but if you just go out and compare the loading times on actual mixed train stations such as Duivendrecht and Amsterdam Amstel, you can clearly see that when a metro and train arrive at the same time, the metro will be long gone by the time the train starts accelerating. Metros just load faster, and I'd rather you get rid of the immense metro capacities (and make that a more realistic number) than to make the loading times merely depend on the amount of doors and their sizes.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by FooBar »

Completely agreed. There are many more factors, but door width is something we can easily guess from pictures, while the other information is impossible to come by for all the trains.
I'm happy to change things, but they must be based on something.

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Transportman »

Livery selection for the Mat's should be working again, I just pushed a fix to the repo. Grab the fixed version here
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Densha »

In case anyone has some free time available and suddenly feels the urge to draw trains :wink: , it was recently announced that Stadler is now excluded from the public tender for the new 'Sprinter' EMU's. Stadler has however put some pictures on the net of their FLIRT 3 EMU in Sprinter livery. Could perhaps make for an interesting futuristic train in the set.
https://www.facebook.com/Railnieuws/pos ... 9755264965

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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Voyager One »

IrmoTrainfan wrote:In case anyone has some free time available and suddenly feels the urge to draw trains
Are you referring to me perhaps? :mrgreen:
IrmoTrainfan wrote:FLIRT 3
This thing looks very very alike some Stadlers I've drawn for the DACH set, it should be fairly easy modifying and recoloring them. Consider it done.
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Re: Dutch Trainset v2.0 being developed

Post by Yoshi »

Something like this?
FLIRT_3_NL_preview.png
FLIRT_3_NL_preview.png (1.17 KiB) Viewed 2574 times
dutch_Flirt.png
dutch_Flirt.png (3.43 KiB) Viewed 2574 times

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