[OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

Oops, yeah, the MUs all check the GRFID as part of the allowed wagon check. BAD FEATURES, eh?

The magical number to check for is "89 25" to find these sprites; if you update the GRFID there too it should fix the issue. A bunch of coach liveries also use ID checks for graphics and/or property callbacks in certain consists. "8A 25" will get you those sprites.

Are you getting the feeling this is more trouble than it's worth yet?

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

PikkaBird wrote:Oops, yeah, the MUs all check the GRFID as part of the allowed wagon check.
Not knowing that much about NFO, I suppose that's the only way to make sure it's wagon #38 from the same GRF, and not wagon #38 from another one (which could be a coal hopper), as checking just the sprite number, or wagon number, or whatever identifier you have, wouldn't be enough.
PikkaBird wrote:BAD FEATURES, eh?
This is what you'll all referring to, right?

EDIT:
Just so you don't misuderstand me, I don't want to remove features that give UKRS its charm - on the contrary, this set is the reason I still play this game after all these years.
I want to fix the railtype bug, because the track sets moved to different railtypes since UKRS was coded.

In addition, I want to play a game starting in the diesel era and the brake wagons get a bit in the way - I think withdrawal in 1975 is too late. But this is a minor issue, the main think is the railtype compatibility.
Though looking at the wiki, it seems if the train speed is at least 60 mph the brake wagon is not required; however, the MGR Hopper appears in 1965 and really, a diesel train with Bogie Hopper (it's the 5th from the top, right?) only wagons and a brake wagon at the end looks a bit out of place :)

I suppose autoreplace is also to blame here - it's not easy to get rid of. I might look into a patch pack like JGR's.
PikkaBird wrote:The magical number to check for is "89 25" to find these sprites; if you update the GRFID there too it should fix the issue. A bunch of coach liveries also use ID checks for graphics and/or property callbacks in certain consists. "8A 25" will get you those sprites.
Thanks! I'll update those as well.

Are there any other BAD FEATURES that I should know about, which might break if I change the GRF ID? :P
PikkaBird wrote:Are you getting the feeling this is more trouble than it's worth yet?
Well I can tell you for certain, it isn't as easy as I imagined, that's for certain :D

I certainly understand why you couldn't be bothered to fix this yourself. At least you would know where to look (or, you know, have comments to point you to), unlike me ;)

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

PikkaBird wrote:The magical number to check for is "89 25" to find these sprites; if you update the GRFID there too it should fix the issue. A bunch of coach liveries also use ID checks for graphics and/or property callbacks in certain consists. "8A 25" will get you those sprites.
The GRF ID is 44 44 10 00 in HEX. There are also other instances I found, aside from the "95 25" ones:

Code: Select all

624 * 23	 02 00 50 8A 25 00 "    " 01 50 00 44 44 10 00 44 44 10 01 01 00
4563 * 9	 07 88 04 \7GG 44 44 10 01 87
Do I need to change these as well? What is GRF ID 44 44 10 01? Or is this just a coincidence?
Last edited by CMircea on 22 Feb 2018 20:38, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PaulC »

CMircea wrote:What is GRF ID 44 44 10 01?
UK Railway Add-on Set (UKRS2+)

https://devs.openttd.org/~rubidium/newgrf.html

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

Thanks Paul, I just figured it out and edited the post before I saw your reply; I reverted that.

I suppose I also need to make the same changes in the add-on set. The question about the other instances still stands - it doesn't look like a coincidence.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

CMircea wrote:Do I need to change these as well? What is GRF ID 44 44 10 01? Or is this just a coincidence?
A bunch of coach liveries also use ID checks for graphics and/or property callbacks in certain consists. "8A 25" will get you those sprites.
You could update the GrfIDs in those sprites; you could update the addon set to use the next GrfID like the stock set does; or you could just leave them and not worry about certain consists not getting their proper 'realistic' paint job. This mostly affects passenger coach colours in the Big Four era.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by NekoMaster »

I'm sure PikkaBird wouldn't mind if someone used UKRS v2 graphics to make their own NML port of UKRS v2, so long as everything works properly at some point.

I know I have permission to use the stuff from NARS because I asked about it.
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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

NekoMaster wrote:I'm sure PikkaBird wouldn't mind if someone used UKRS v2 graphics to make their own NML port of UKRS v2, so long as everything works properly at some point.
I don't mind at all, although the UKRS2 graphics aren't very good compared to, say, Iron Horse, which is already GPL.


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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

PikkaBird wrote:You could update the GrfIDs in those sprites; you could update the addon set to use the next GrfID like the stock set does; or you could just leave them and not worry about certain consists not getting their proper 'realistic' paint job. This mostly affects passenger coach colours in the Big Four era.
I just did a mass find & replace. I hope it didn't mess anything up :lol:
PikkaBird wrote:
NekoMaster wrote:I'm sure PikkaBird wouldn't mind if someone used UKRS v2 graphics to make their own NML port of UKRS v2, so long as everything works properly at some point.
I don't mind at all, although the UKRS2 graphics aren't very good compared to, say, Iron Horse, which is already GPL.
You are too modest. Your graphics are some of the most polished ones ever made for this game. Andy's set is also very very good - it's hard at this level to say one is better than the other.

What I would like to do is:
  1. Release a fixed version of the current GRFs to be compatible with the standard rail types.
  2. Afterwards, recode the GRF in NML, using the same graphics, to allow for easier maintenance & contributions.
For point 1 I think I've got the hang of it (deciphering NFO without any comments is a real pain in the arse) and will have it done soon.
For point 2 there's going to be a lot of work, especially recreating the dual catenary/3rd rail engines with the different speeds (as well as the JB), but from what I've seen, it's nowhere near as bad in NML as it is in NFO - I'm still amazed how clever it is done in NFO after digging into it in order to understand the implications of the rail type change and how the table is used.

Would I (well, we, the community, since Gwyd also showed interest) have your permission to recode UKRS2 in NML? What about the graphics in the add-on set (I believe not all of them are your's)?

I am not sure if it makes sense to recreate all features - the current loco/wagon selection comes to mind, especially now that there are other UK-inspired sets for exactly that purpose (like Andy's Iron Horse).
However, I would prefer to merge the two GRFs (main & add-on) into a single one and use parameters to select various classes of vehicles (eg. no steam, no tube, no rare/prototype).

One thing's for certain, I wouldn't change it to differ much from the current set - it has quite a charm I like :) Extending it into the future and perhaps some extra modern engines would be what I have in mind.
andythenorth wrote:But what about the BAD FEATURES? :shock:
Some people really enjoy fighting with the game for hours upon hours :lol:

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

CMircea wrote:(deciphering NFO without any comments is a real pain in the arse)
You do keep dropping this hint, but honestly, the commented code wouldn't do you much good. Recoding the set from scratch (which is what I did for NARS 2.5, for example) will be much quicker and easier than trying to modify the old code into a new format, especially if you're fixing bugs and streamlining features along the way.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

PikkaBird wrote:
CMircea wrote:(deciphering NFO without any comments is a real pain in the arse)
You do keep dropping this hint, but honestly, the commented code wouldn't do you much good.
I don't think the source would help much with any features or extensions to the set, but it would help with fixing issues like this one, where there were a lot of seemingly unrelated places to edit, until I figured out that they were actions that changed the vehicle power and speed depending on a lookup into the railtype table. NFOCodec certainly didn't help by providing confusing output (like the U at the end, which in fact was the label to jump to).
PikkaBird wrote:Recoding the set from scratch (which is what I did for NARS 2.5, for example) will be much quicker and easier than trying to modify the old code into a new format, especially if you're fixing bugs and streamlining features along the way.
I agree, especially now with NML which is much more easy to make sense out of (not having to worry about individual bytes, little endian, etc.).

Modifying the existing code would be an uphill battle; for example, I'm a bit afraid to ask you how you figured out the mechanism to vary the speeds - I can see it's VarAction 2, but understanding what it does is a whole different ball game :)

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by NekoMaster »

I have a bit of experience with NML so I could help with the NML port/remake of UKRS v2, I mean I've already put out a belgian train set and my own NARS Add-on set. Sadly I dunno if i cna do any really fancy things like the dual power or dual mode stuff at the moment.
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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by CMircea »

A version of UKRS2 and the add-on set compatible with the standard railtypes is now available at your favourite fruit store. Ask the clerk for:
  • UKRS2 - Community Bugfixes
  • UKRS2 Addon - Community Bugfixes
I've only tested it with BRTracks so far, but will test with other track sets soon and I'll fix any issues I encounter.
If you have problems please let me know here or open an issue on GitHub: https://github.com/CMircea/UKRS2

PikkaBird and the extended set contributors retain all rights to their code and graphics.

Thank you very much Pikka for your assistance, permission and your hard work on this train set.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by Supercheese »

CMircea wrote:A version of UKRS2 and the add-on set compatible with the standard railtypes is now available at your favourite fruit store.
I'll take two, please! :D
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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by Nazdakka »

Registering as someone who would use and enjoy this set except for the no-livestock thing which makes me very sad :(

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by Redirect Left »

Nazdakka wrote:Registering as someone who would use and enjoy this set except for the no-livestock thing which makes me very sad :(
I believe UKRS3 is being worked on. So there's a chance this will be in the new version. However, how long it'll be before URKS3 is ready for even play testing, I've no idea. I'm certainly looking forward to it though.
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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

Nazdakka wrote:Registering as someone who would use and enjoy this set except for the no-livestock thing which makes me very sad :(
Huh, I thought I'd added a fictional later livestock carrier. Maybe that was UKRS1. Sorry. :(
Redirect Left wrote:I believe UKRS3 is being worked on. So there's a chance this will be in the new version. However, how long it'll be before URKS3 is ready for even play testing, I've no idea. I'm certainly looking forward to it though.
This was definitely Realism Gone Mad in UKRS2, and UKRS3 will have later livestock wagons. A full public beta is probably a few months away, but if you'd like an earlier look there are alphas on Patreon.

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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by NekoMaster »

Nazdakka wrote:Registering as someone who would use and enjoy this set except for the no-livestock thing which makes me very sad :(
Wow, I didn't notice that until you pointed it out.

WHY DOES THE LIVESTOCK WAGONS KEEP DISAPPEARING IN PIKKA'S TRAIN GRFS?
PikkaBird wrote:
Redirect Left wrote:I believe UKRS3 is being worked on. So there's a chance this will be in the new version. However, how long it'll be before URKS3 is ready for even play testing, I've no idea. I'm certainly looking forward to it though.
This was definitely Realism Gone Mad in UKRS2, and UKRS3 will have later livestock wagons. A full public beta is probably a few months away, but if you'd like an earlier look there are alphas on Patreon.
Is UKRS v3 going to be a full set or are you going to be experimenting with that 10cc idea? A full UKRS v3 set (perhaps in NML) would be nice to add new stuff if possible as well as fix some issues (also having it in NML means that people could easily maintain and add more stuff in the future)
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Re: [OTTD] UKRS2 - Latest version 1.05 (02/01/2013)

Post by PikkaBird »

NekoMaster wrote:WHY DOES THE LIVESTOCK WAGONS KEEP DISAPPEARING IN PIKKA'S TRAIN GRFS?
BECAUSE:
a) In the real-world UK, livestock disappeared from the railways mid-century, so there are no modern prototypes for "realistic" later vehicles.
b) the time gap between vehicles in NARS2 was unintended. Was it fixed in 2.5?

In any case, livestock is a silly cargo in TTD. It doesn't fit the cargo class scheme very well, so it always has to be explicitly handled, and the default implementation is pointless from a gameplay perspective, as it just mirrors grain/wheat. My future vehicle GRFs will handle livestock properly, but my future industry GRFs will probably leave it out altogether, in favour of doing something more interesting with the agriculture chains.
Is UKRS v3 going to be a full set or are you going to be experimenting with that 10cc idea?
They're not necessarily mutually exclusive. :) The 10CC idea - 10 locos which would make a playable set - was used to build a foundation ("A locos"). Then gaps were filled ("B locos"), and vehicles I just like ("C locos") were added. The current tracking table is similar in scope to UKRS2, except the target start date is 1900, not 1860.

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