[OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by andythenorth »

Question: there are two ways I can handle steam -> diesel transition for ships.

1. Totally different models, different vehicle ID in nfo. Player chooses 'Steam Coaster' or 'Diesel Coaster' etc. Upgrade old ships at your leisure.

2. Same ID, at some point in time all new ships are just diesel. Player chooses 'Coaster', and depending on year, gets steam or diesel. Old ships are upgraded by auto-renew over time. This is similar to NARS 2.0 'improvement' of engines over time. (HEQS does something similar with bulldozers).

Capacity and speed will be about the same steam/diesel. Running costs might vary.

Opinions?
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by colossal404 »

I vote for the 2. opinion. When the diesels are invented, no more stemaers will be built.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by CommanderZ »

I vote for 1. Ships don't usually don't upgrade themselves, do they? Also, the transition surely wasn't like that 31.12 everybody happily used steamers and on 1.1 everybody dumped them and started using diesel only.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Ferretscout »

i would prefer 1 as well as i like to keep some old vehicles running.
If its worth doing do it, if not don't..... maybe....... Screenshots
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Comm Cody »

One, because, I might make a ship museum. :twisted:
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by frosch »

@3 posters before me:
I assume andy meant to do the steam->diesel transition only for new vehicles, not for every vehicle in game at once.
I.e. "build date" decides, not "current date". Also usually not all your ships get old at once, so the steam->diesel transition would take about the livetime of one ship.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by CommanderZ »

frosch wrote:@3 posters before me:
I assume andy meant to do the steam->diesel transition only for new vehicles, not for every vehicle in game at once.
I.e. "build date" decides, not "current date". Also usually not all your ships get old at once, so the steam->diesel transition would take about the livetime of one ship.
Then its fine with me (though now it seems to me both ways are mostly equivalent from player's view, except 2 would prevent players from building olders ships - which can be otherwise enabled by turning the "always avaliable" option on).
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by andythenorth »

CommanderZ wrote:Then its fine with me (though now it seems to me both ways are mostly equivalent from player's view...)
Considerations with option 1 (separate Steam / Diesel):
- more ships cluttering up the buy menu (but only for a while)
- more code overall, but the code is simpler (and templated!)...so actually less work to do
- uses more IDs (but there are more than enough for this set)
- allows players to keep old ships around for eye candy

I prefer option 1.

I suppose I could make a capacity increase coincide with the change in power (perhaps diesel requires a little less space for engine and fuel than steam, so more space is available for cargo?)

Far as I know speeds would be about the same, some steam turbine ships were *very* fast.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by APDAF »

I like one more because I use the no obsolete.
Visit my screenshot thread--> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=47&t=54118
If you want to have a go at War Thunder, PM me, I have an invite code.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Coxx »

andythenorth wrote:
PikkaBird wrote:I wonder if we're going to get catamarans and hovercraft? ;)
Probably yes; maybe not soon:) Also...hydrofoils, which will need some foxy speed-detecting code and rather a lot sprites due to the cool way in which hydrofoils work.
...
cheers,

Andy
Great!
Out of personal interest: did you have had this planned from the beginnig or did you got hooked by the pictures?
andythenorth wrote:
CommanderZ wrote:Then its fine with me (though now it seems to me both ways are mostly equivalent from player's view...)
Considerations with option 1 (separate Steam / Diesel):
- more ships cluttering up the buy menu (but only for a while)
- more code overall, but the code is simpler (and templated!)...so actually less work to do
- uses more IDs (but there are more than enough for this set)
- allows players to keep old ships around for eye candy

I prefer option 1.

I suppose I could make a capacity increase coincide with the change in power (perhaps diesel requires a little less space for engine and fuel than steam, so more space is available for cargo?)

Far as I know speeds would be about the same, some steam turbine ships were *very* fast.
I was wondering what were your plans about different generations of ships. Just some thoughts about it.

I don´t think steam and diesel ships should be essentially the same. Actually, there should be at least two generations of steam and diesel. Not so much because of "it would be nice" but because of the relation between ships and trains. There are allready a wide variaty of ships in the set, maybe they might be spread over time or altered to fit a more specific role.

In RL ships developed in three aspects: size, speed and efficiency.
I think there is an absolute limit for ship-size in game (some 1000 tons). Mainly because of the different Industry grf´s which use stockpiling (PBI, ECS). Ships should move, not anchoring at the dock for ages (waiting for full load - and you wouidn´t see the bow and prop wake :lol: ).
I would suggest introducing the bigger ships only later in the game (no large (and medium) steam Coasters) relating to the devolopment of train grf´s. Diesel ships of the same size should have more capacity.
There might also be a limit to ship speed in the game. But there were an significant increase in speed between old steamers and latest generation diesels. I like the idea of having some smaller but faster (more expensive) ships like the Islandtrader.
Running costs should decrease over time due the introduction of new technologies. As well as the loading times. - Other than trains in the depot, ships waiting in a port do cost money, actually more than on route. Running costs should not be lower while waiting there.
I like the fact that allmost all ships are refittable to allmost every cargo (carrying some other cargo on the way back), but carrying oil and fruit on the return - this doesn´t feel right. Modern ships are often very specialized.
Currently there are no refit costs. It might be a good idea to distinguish ships not only by size and speed but also if, and how easily and expensiv they are to refit. There might be ships which have no (container) o very low refit cost (general cargo), while you can´t refit an oil tanker to fruit (or have to rebuild it).

Anyway, thanks for the new release.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by andythenorth »

(apologies for line by line reply :) only way to answer this many points)
Coxx wrote:Out of personal interest: did you have had this planned from the beginnig or did you got hooked by the pictures?
Mostly hooked by the speed. A conventional passenger ferry or steamer is considered 'fast' if it can do 20 knots. Catamarans and hovercraft meanwhile can 40-50 knots.
Coxx wrote:I don´t think steam and diesel ships should be essentially the same. Actually, there should be at least two generations of steam and diesel.
Assuming I don't get bored of drawing the damn things, this is what I've been planning the last couple of days for coasters:
Diesel Coasters (current sprites)
Modern Diesel Coasters (a more squared off version bridge structure)
Steam Coasters (moving the bridge to just fore of midships, and with a stern structure as well, and a tall funnel)
Early Steam Coasters (bridge structure located midships, quite low to the deck).

Similar pattern for River Boats, but probably fewer generations as they haven't evolved as much.
Coxx wrote:I think there is an absolute limit for ship-size in game (some 1000 tons).
The largest FISH vessel will be the Large Coaster at 1080t, followed by a barge tow with 960t.
Coxx wrote:you wouidn´t see the bow and prop wake
Do you see the bow / prop wake while the ship is loading? There is code to hide it, but I'm not sure what versions of OpenTTD support it (recent nightlies do fully).
Coxx wrote:But there were an significant increase in speed between old steamers and latest generation diesels.
Sure? Early steam seems to be perhaps about 10-13 knots, but later 15-18 knots seems common, which seems to be about the speed of diesel coasters now. I don't have too much info about real life, but that's what I found. Ach, anyway it's a game, I'll consider setting speeds as you suggest.
Coxx wrote:I like the idea of having some smaller but faster (more expensive) ships like the Islandtrader.
The set has been quite carefully balanced...for any given capacity, slower ships will generally cost less to buy and run...but obviously travel slower, so lower earnings :)
Coxx wrote:Running costs should decrease over time due the introduction of new technologies.
That will happen - there is a 'crew' factor in the running cost calculation. Modern ships = fewer stokers etc. So cheaper to run.
Coxx wrote:Other than trains in the depot, ships waiting in a port do cost money, actually more than on route. Running costs should not be lower while waiting there.
Really? Ships burn less fuel whilst waiting. Far as I know they leave the engines running though.
Coxx wrote:I like the fact that allmost all ships are refittable to allmost every cargo (carrying some other cargo on the way back), but carrying oil and fruit on the return
Simple: imagine the oil is in tank containers and the fruit is in reefer containers :)
Coxx wrote:Currently there are no refit costs. It might be a good idea to distinguish ships not only by size and speed but also if, and how easily and expensiv they are to refit. There might be ships which have no (container) o very low refit cost (general cargo), while you can´t refit an oil tanker to fruit (or have to rebuild it)
The refit cost is unsophisticated. It's the same for every cargo. Because the refit cost for all general cargos should be zero, there will be a few weird cases like refitting to oil which should cost a lot but doesn't. We'll live with it ;)
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by ZxBiohazardZx »

so in total, how many "ships/boats/whatevers" do we have now? (and i LOVE this set)
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by andythenorth »

ZxBiohazardZx wrote:so in total, how many "ships/boats/whatevers" do we have now? (and i LOVE this set)
14 in total. Largest 1080t, smallest 35t.

What's next? No promises, but probably the tow boats (barges). Or possibly more passenger ships.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by andythenorth »

Kogut asked in the release thread why ships are introduced in 1900.

The answer...they just are - for now. It's an arbitrary date that fits when I normally start the game.

Future FISH will have a full range of ships going back at least to 1870 if not earlier. But that's future.

Meanwhile, what dates would players like FISH to start? I am happy to make it earlier if a few people want that. Massively unrealistic for the current sprites, but I don't mind ;)
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Timmaexx »

What about some kind of Santa Maria in 1495 AD?
I've never seen sailing ships in TTD! That would be a great new addition...
And if you say do it yourself, i'll try ;)
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Kogut »

The indroduction date is completely unrealistic, so it may be earlier (I sometimes start game in 1871 with first UKRS train).
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Kogut »

moved from bad topic.

Great log raft!
But diagonal size is strange - boat is extremly small, wood is enormous large.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by colossal404 »

Hello!

I trying to draw a hydrofoil:
clip0022.gif
clip0022.gif (146.17 KiB) Viewed 1375 times
The hull is just a base, I just want to try to animate the waves.
If this graph is good enough I will draw the other views.
Sorry for the unregistered gif creator.
Edit: Base model
Edit2: Or if Andy don't want it, I won't do anything.
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Re: [OTTD] FISH....FISH FISH FISH FISH (work in progress)

Post by Kogut »

Moving hydrofoil have bow pushed up higher than stern.
And there is free space between water and hydrofoil.
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