[OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

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What kind of flag should futuristic trains have

UN Flag
114
46%
Olympic flag
17
7%
Have a suggested country
38
15%
No Flag
78
31%
Other, i've made a post about this
2
1%
 
Total votes: 249

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Purno
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Purno »

Emperor Jake wrote:
Voyager One wrote: Purno wrote:
Could re-aligment for sprites be automated? As in, move all sprites 1 pix up and 2 pix left, with a simple command?

No idea. Anyways, I'm using the lowly MsPaint for all drawings but there it isn't possible.
That would actually be very simple - I'd just have to tweak the offsets in the code.
I hoped it would. So that means that re-allignment isn't really a good reason to take any decision? :P

Doesn't mean this actually changes our decision though :P
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Bob_Mackenzie »

FWIW - a separate wagon set that detected the sets it was with and aligned as required would be really excellent

It night have to be a paremeter as i bet people load multiple (incompatible) train sets
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Voyager One »

Emperor Jake wrote:
Voyager One wrote: Purno wrote:
Could re-aligment for sprites be automated? As in, move all sprites 1 pix up and 2 pix left, with a simple command?

No idea. Anyways, I'm using the lowly MsPaint for all drawings but there it isn't possible.
That would actually be very simple - I'd just have to tweak the offsets in the code.
As I've said, possible only with codework.

And again I repeat myself, all are aligned as "standard" OTTD sprites, the problem lies in people ignoring common grounds and making "non-standard" alignments for their sets. We've always held to the classic OTTD standard.
---
Bob_Mackenzie wrote:FWIW - a separate wagon set that detected the sets it was with and aligned as required would be really excellent
How can this GRF detect the alignment within another set? Is it actually possible? The way I see it, our coder (aka Jake) should know in advance ALL ways other sets are aligned and then preset these re-alignments manually. Or is there another way?
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by PikkaBird »

Voyager One wrote:5. Wrt Ammler's concern about alignments, IIRC my conversation with DJ, all wagons are aligned in a standard manner. The only "problem" that I see is that some sets use different scaled wagons. I know for a fact that Pikka's UKRS is scaled a little differently. However, this is something minor and it cannot be dealt with so no use bothering about this.
UKRS2 isn't scaled differently. The trains are smaller than other sets, but that's because UK trains are smaller than in other places. My sprites are still aligned "normally", afaia.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Emperor Jake »

Voyager One wrote: Bob_Mackenzie wrote:
FWIW - a separate wagon set that detected the sets it was with and aligned as required would be really excellent

How can this GRF detect the alignment within another set? Is it actually possible? The way I see it, our coder (aka Jake) should know in advance ALL ways other sets are aligned and then preset these re-alignments manually. Or is there another way?
This should indeed be possible - I'd just have to test the wagons with different sets and tweak the alignments to match. I don't think there'll be much to do anyway, I find most of the popular trainsets seem to match up quite well. (trust me - I'm one of those people that mixes trains from different sets) :P
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Purno »

Emperor Jake wrote: This should indeed be possible - I'd just have to test the wagons with different sets and tweak the alignments to match. I don't think there'll be much to do anyway, I find most of the popular trainsets seem to match up quite well. (trust me - I'm one of those people that mixes trains from different sets) :P
If most of the popular trainsets match our allignment, I don't think we really need to worry about those few unpopular trainsets who don't match :P
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Emperor Jake »

I've created a development thread for the wagon set - please continue discussion there :)

I've also released an alpha contianing all of the passenger wagons :mrgreen:
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Voyager One »

PikkaBird wrote:UKRS2 isn't scaled differently. The trains are smaller than other sets, but that's because UK trains are smaller than in other places. My sprites are still aligned "normally", afaia.
Sorry Pikka, I must have understood it wrong then. I know that there is some kind of difference in size, I've thought it was scaling. My bad.

From what I see here, basically we don't have a problem with alignment then.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Robbedem »

Hello,

i'm not shure this is the right place to report this, but at least its about the 2cc train set.

I found a bug (witch unfortunetly might require a lot of research)
For de MU powered-carriage trains, the TE is not correct (anymore?). They all have unrealisticly high values.
For example: the NTV AGV show a TE of 274kN/unit, while it should be 45.5kN/Unit. (the 274 is for a six car train)

(i got my information from this website)
http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/ ... AGV%20.pdf

Next one more (possible) bug:
- the JNR Shinkansen Series 0 has a life time of 44 years instead of 25 like al other trains in that category.
I think model time (not life time) should be 44 years

Also, when I played this set with model time enabled, the reliability went down a lot when the model wasn't available anymore, although the lifetime could be just 10 years. Can this be fixed in 2cc set or is it Open TTD that needs fixing?

Also, does anyone know how the purchase and running costs are calculated? Because for some trains it seems to high.
For example: The TGV Duplex (7tiles) costs about 200.000/year (no inflation) while the NTV AGV Duplex (7tiles), same manufacturer, similar train, more efficient version, costs more than double! (450.000/year).

Robbedem
Attachments
2cc train list.xlsx
I made an excel sheet with available engines
(not yet medium speed loading and metro's) for v2.0 beta5
(in-game data)
(50.06 KiB) Downloaded 136 times
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Eddi »

Robbedem wrote:Also, when I played this set with model time enabled, the reliability went down a lot when the model wasn't available anymore, although the lifetime could be just 10 years. Can this be fixed in 2cc set or is it Open TTD that needs fixing?
this can be fixed in the GRF, by making the model lifetime longer and increasing the "early retirement" to the same value as the vehicle lifetime. that way, a vehicle purchased at the latest possible date will have full reliability for its entire lifetime.

in values:

Code: Select all

vehicle_lifetime = X
model_lifetime = (retire_year-introduction_year) + X + 4 [magical value]
early_retirement = X
retire-year can be adjusted freely, best would be the introduction year of a similar replacement vehicle, to reduce overlap in the purchase menu.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by peter1138 »

This is with v2.0.0 beta 5, as available on Bananas. Possibly reported before but here goes:

* Some flags have palette animation pixels in the top right corner.
* All MU wagons reference an undefined string in their extra text in the purchase window.
* Unattached MU wagons have no sprite offsets (0, 0 is top left of the sprite) which makes drag & drop in the depot awkward.
He's like, some kind of OpenTTD developer.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Robbedem »

Robbedem wrote: I found a bug (witch unfortunetly might require a lot of research)
For de MU powered-carriage trains, the TE is not correct (anymore?). They all have unrealisticly high values.
For example: the NTV AGV show a TE of 274kN/unit, while it should be 45.5kN/Unit. (the 274 is for a six car train)

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transport/ ... AGV%20.pdf
Robbedem
I made a mistake, the difference is even larger: the 274kN is for a 11 car AGV, giving 12 wheel bases -> 23kN per Unit
(46 for the locomotive, 23 for every added MU)

Since for most trains I couldn't find any information on TE, perhaps a scaling from this train could be used for other electric trains?
(compare the number of powered axles and use the same amount of TE per axle) This would propably be to high for most trains, but not as much as it is now -> big improvement :-)

In this case that would be 45,67 (46) kN per bogie. (50% of wheelbases is motorised) -> 23kN per powered axle
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by oberhümer »

Or guess acceleration values and arrive at tractive force by multiplying them with train mass. There are more real values available, so it could be the better option.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Robbedem »

If it can be found, obviously go with the better data, but in case there is no information, my proposition could fill the gap.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Aphid »

May I have a suggestion:

Trains such as the CC 40100, Taurus, Lok2000, etc. cannot use their top speed at all in any game year with wagon speed limits on (and strict).

Also, there is no real reason to use the 5th gen intercity or regional car above the double-decker.

--> Why not lower the limit on the double-decker to 160 and raise the intercity to 241, and regonal as 201? They would be competitive.

The situation is worse in earlier years such as 1965, when you have a 241 kph electric engine and the fastest car it can pull goes 160 kph. Then again the CC 40100 is a bit unbalanced compared to engines of it's time, it's a large leap forward in speed compared to anything else. Or try the second half of the 19th century, where you can pull hopper wagons at 90 km/h yet the passengers have to go at a slow 50 km/h. I don't believe that this is an accurate depiction of reality :)

Here's a little table comparing the speed of the fastest locomotive engine with the top speed of the fastest, most expensive passenger carriage:

Code: Select all

1850, 1860, 1870, 1880: See 1890.
1890: Engine 96, Wagon 50 (90 for cargo)
1900: Engine 96, Wagon 80 
1910: Engine 130, Wagon 80
1920: Engine 130, Wagon 80
1930: Engine 135, Wagon 80
1940: Engine 160, Wagon 120
1950: Engine 160, Wagon 120
1960: Engine 160, Wagon 160
1970: Engine 241, Wagon 160
1980: Engine 241, Wagon 160
1990: Engine 241, Wagon 160
2000: Engine 241, Wagon 201
And a Table of engine speeds:

Code: Select all

1835: 35
1848: 96
1910: 130
1919: 144
1935: 160
1964: 241
1970: 201*
1991: 231*
* Ignoring the SNCF CC 40100.

Thus I suggest the following Wagon speeds:
P: Passenger and Mail carriages.
I: Intercity and Mail carriages.
R: Regional
D: Double-Decker

Code: Select all

P1: 100; 1845
P2: 130; 1900
P3: 145; 1915*
I3: 160; 1930**
I4: 241; 1960**
I5: Scrapped
R2: 100; 1900
R3: 120; 1930
R4: 140; 1960
R5: 180; 1990
D4: 120; 1960
D5: 140; 2000
* New wagons
** Old I3 becomes new I4. Old I4 becomes new I5.
Or, ignoring the CC 40100 (which is rediculously fast for 1964 compared to the rest of the set, top speed should probably be 201 and not 241), and going by the article on high-speed train on Wikipedia, which lists adoption in France in 1967.

Code: Select all

P1: 100; 1845
P2: 130; 1900
P3: 145; 1915*
I3: 160; 1930
I4: 201; 1967
I5: 241; 1990****
R2: 100; 1900
R3: 120; 1930
R4: 140; 1960
R5: 180; 1990
D4: 120; 1960
D5: 140; 2000
* New wagons
** Old I3 becomes new I4. Old I4 becomes new I5.
*** Timed with the NS 1600. 
**** 231 if the 40100 gets a lower top speed.
Cars are long from generation 3 onward.
Actually, maybe I should try plugging the engine numbers of this set into a spreadsheet to calc. profitability. While playing it's noticeable that some engines are overcosted greatly and others are quite cheap.
F = PerFormance, P = Power, TE = Tractive Effort, L = Length, RC = Running Cost, C = buy Cost
F/ RC,F/ C, P/RC, P/C, TE/RC, TE/C, P/L, TE/L, 'cool factor (subjective)' for both passengers, heavy freight, express or light freight
--> In at least one category should an engine be (close to) best among all engines previously introduced. Else you have a pointless engine.

Other fairly obvious balance flaws are the following:

- Track costs are off with standard tracks;

Rail: 1
El-Rail: 11.875
Metro Rail: 2
Maglev: 2.196

'Metro' and 'Maglev' still use the default values, causing them to be quite inexpensive. If track costs are set reasonably high then building [electrified] metro tracks is quite cheap while electrified rails are overly expensive, esp. when maglev is available.

For example, the NuTracks uses

Code: Select all

VSR: 1.00
VSE: 2.85
LSR: 2.85
LSE: 9.96
MSR: 9.96
MSE: 28.5
HSR: 28.5
HSE: 99.6
XSE: 199.2
Subway: 5.70
Maglev: 711.4
when working with the Set.
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Robbedem »

I haven't played with them yet, but there is a new wagon set. (freigth is not released yet AFAIK)
http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=63693
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by SkiddLow »

I Few the Request about Argo Cahaya Will be Add 2cc. :?:
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Voyager One »

Isn't that the Shinkansen 700 that is already in?
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by aantono »

Earlier in this topic there was a discussion about adding ER2 & ER200 to the set (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 60#p815878) and there even was a contribution of the sprites. Looking at the last version I don't see those trains in there. Can someone from the authors comment on that, if possible?
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Re: [OTTD] 2cc TrainSet - The Trains of the world in 2cc

Post by Emperor Jake »

aantono wrote:Earlier in this topic there was a discussion about adding ER2 & ER200 to the set (http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php? ... 60#p815878) and there even was a contribution of the sprites. Looking at the last version I don't see those trains in there. Can someone from the authors comment on that, if possible?
I don't know of any sprites for these, otherwise I would likely have added them.
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