FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development

[V453000 :)]

The real question is if it's possible for somebody OTHER than Andy to do it.

Maybe FIRS and YETI should join forces...?

AND sonebody other than V453000. I have about 10 times more projects than I can chew on my own already.

[NekoMaster]

It might just be less of a hassle if various people contributed on their own some 32bpp sprites, so long as they conform to a certain style so we don't have one factory that looks different then another.

[Kalen]

AND sonebody other than V453000. I have about 10 times more projects than I can chew on my own already.

I think I owe you an apology; my comment was supposed to be facetious (I don't even play with 32bpp industry/basesets), but the way I wrote it, it sounded more like I was suggesting you undertake such a task all willy-nilly like it's a short amount of work. My bad.

Making a higher resolution FIRS set is very hard work, and it takes someone with both the time and the desire to do so. In my (very biased) opinion, I still think that such a redraw would detract from the set's stylistic appeal, but of course I'm not opposed to it, since I'm sure many players would like it. But it's definitely something that would warrant a fork by an interested party.

[luxtram]

Making a higher resolution FIRS set is very hard work, and it takes someone with both the time and the desire to do so. In my (very biased) opinion, I still think that such a redraw would detract from the set's stylistic appeal.

Not necessarily. I just got curious few days ago and made a test. What is usually distracting with zoomed in low res is the jaggies. So I just smoothed some out and it looks much better. I also smoothed some color transitions (it is 32 bit after all).

EnlargeTest.png (10.23 KiB) Viewed 3657 times

The result has exactly the spirit of the original, that is usually lacking when creating a rendered replica. What is especially interesting, is that scaled down version (using linear scaling) looks very similar to the original and is in some regard even better, as it creates smoother lines.

So in principle, if carefully applied, then drawing in 2x resolution may also create benefits for the standard resolution.

While this project might be huge to do fully, it would be also very interesting for somebody who desires to learn how to create graphics, and it may be advanced gradually based on the main interest of the maker.

[NekoMaster]

Honestly I always thought that with 32bpp, one could make stuff at two - four times the resolution with pixel/sprite art to give more freedom for detail and color, and may make doing sprites on angles like buildings and vehicles a little easier.

[supermop]

Honestly I always thought that with 32bpp, one could make stuff at two - four times the resolution with pixel/sprite art to give more freedom for detail and color, and may make doing sprites on angles like buildings and vehicles a little easier.

You certainly get freedom to use more colors, antialiasing, and hint at small details, but this is the type of freedom that makes the actual work much more difficult. Having a limited 'vocabulary' of colors means you don't need to spend nearly as much effort to determine how you want to convey something. If I say, "I want you to build me a 3-bedroom house, on this lot, and I only can spend $100,000. Oh also the neighborhood requires a traditional brick style" you know exactly what you need to do, and what challenges await you. If I say, "I want some kind of building, whatever you think is best, somewhere on planet Earth, I don't care where. I want to spend up to 10 billion dollars." you have a ton of work ahead of you just to figure out where to start.

One of the most painstaking design experiences I've ever had has been deciding to repaint a bedroom 'white'. Going to the hardware store, you end up picking 20 imperceptibly different shades and stare at them taped to you wall for weeks before deciding on one. At my next apartment I just told my landlord that the walls needed to be repainted, and they just used whatever plain white they already had. Saved myself a lot of headache that way.

[luxtram]

Honestly I always thought that with 32bpp, one could make stuff at two - four times the resolution with pixel/sprite art to give more freedom for detail and color, and may make doing sprites on angles like buildings and vehicles a little easier.

Yes, this is one way to look at it. Downside is that you then actually have to provide more details or otherwise your graphics looks dull and boring and boxy, that is unfortunately very often the case. Also it means that high resolution graphics has to be then downconverted and if it is not specially created for this resolution then the result may look messy and incorrect. If the normal size view is your most common view then it can become quite annoying.

This means that good looking high resolution graphics is hard to make. Perhaps even harder than good looking normal resolution graphics considering that you want to make it also look good on the normal resolution where most of the action is taking place. Therefore up-conversion from the normal resolution is actually quite interesting as you already have functioning graphics and you can focus only on adding additional detail where needed.

[V453000 :)]

AND sonebody other than V453000. I have about 10 times more projects than I can chew on my own already.

I think I owe you an apology; my comment was supposed to be facetious (I don't even play with 32bpp industry/basesets), but the way I wrote it, it sounded more like I was suggesting you undertake such a task all willy-nilly like it's a short amount of work. My bad.

Making a higher resolution FIRS set is very hard work, and it takes someone with both the time and the desire to do so. In my (very biased) opinion, I still think that such a redraw would detract from the set's stylistic appeal, but of course I'm not opposed to it, since I'm sure many players would like it. But it's definitely something that would warrant a fork by an interested party.

Don't worry about that at all.

Making higher resolution graphics is generally a far bigger problem than just "add more pixels". Not only it is more work to draw more detailed pictures (which can become worth it to do it in 3D software due to the sizes and stuff), drawing in 32bpp is a "more freedom must be better", but in fact making it fit OpenTTD gets harder because you need to choose colours a lot more carefully. Like supermop says pretty much.

The point about having the model work in both x4 and x1 zooms is also true, it is a gigantic pain.

And there is more and more things, one of the most terrible problems is that if you add more resolution, make more details, render it from 3D, in very nice colours, the pictures start resembling of reality more and more. But that hits a huge brick wall of OpenTTD's scales - trains are short and fat, buildings are small, ... Which is one of the big reasons why I don't do realistic stuff, especially in BRIX. Having it purposedly cartoonish doesn't lead to that wall (as much) in my opinion.

Taking x1 sprites, upscaling them, and then building on top of them is certainly not a stupid idea however.

V

[andythenorth]

Phreeze has done some translations for Luxembourgish, so I'll put a new FIRS release on Bananas soon (maybe this week).

Anyone else got translation updates to add? https://translator.openttdcoop.org/project/firs

[SkullKrixzz]

i am a big fan of firs, been using for a long time and well i couldnt even play ottd with out it actually, but there is a question/suggestion i would like to make. and i am sorry if it has been spoken about before, but i run firs 6138 on "extreme" and i am happy with all the industry chains there are, but, there is always one that is missing, and thats the vehicle chain, i know it is in basic for arctic, but why not have it as part of the "extreme" setting?

[andythenorth]

....the vehicle chain, i know it is in basic for arctic, but why not have it as part of the "extreme" setting?

Not enough cargos. OpenTTD limit is 32, FIRS extreme uses 31. Vehicles chain needs both vehicles, and vehicle parts cargos, so yair, won't fit

http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... ml#extreme

One option would be to drop a cargo from extreme. Extreme wasn't designed as a cohesive economy, it has grown over the years, and doesn't make a lot of sense in places. It could be reworked. But unpicking it might not be worth it.

Another option is to add a bigger economy featuring the vehicle chain. I'm 99% definitely going to do that sometime. Probably a heavy industry economy, inspired by places like the Great Lakes (USA / Canada) and Rhine-Ruhr (Germany).

[leifbk]

Yes, please let us keep the Extreme as it is. It enables me to play in arctic climate with fishing and several decent wood-based chains, not least proper paper mills. Even if a few industries are somewhat out of place (eg. sugar refineries), in my taste it's far better than the new Arctic, which with its single goal of maximizing vehicle production feels very unlike ottd's usual open-endedness.

[SkullKrixzz]

....the vehicle chain, i know it is in basic for arctic, but why not have it as part of the "extreme" setting?

Not enough cargos. OpenTTD limit is 32, FIRS extreme uses 31. Vehicles chain needs both vehicles, and vehicle parts cargos, so yair, won't fit

http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/pus ... ml#extreme

One option would be to drop a cargo from extreme. Extreme wasn't designed as a cohesive economy, it has grown over the years, and doesn't make a lot of sense in places. It could be reworked. But unpicking it might not be worth it.

Another option is to add a bigger economy featuring the vehicle chain. I'm 99% definitely going to do that sometime. Probably a heavy industry economy, inspired by places like the Great Lakes (USA / Canada) and Rhine-Ruhr (Germany).

thank you for explaining that, i figured they would probably have been a reason why, sucks however. as well i do find a few industries/chain in extreme i dont ever bother with really, i never go with aluminium unless it happens to conveniently beside someplace else im working, and i never use hardware stores or anything like that, i dont see them as that valuable to deliver to. i am sure other players use them however. also that heavy industry economy you mentioned sounds quite interesting. being from canada myself i grew up in a town within the greater toronto area that was home to the general motors car factory, maybe thats why im so into having the vehicle chain. however i have been hearing GM will be moving out of the city and over to the states...most annoyed by that, that factory is what was mainly supporting the town so that would most likely kill the town for the most part.....but anyways, thanks again.

[kamnet]

....the vehicle chain, i know it is in basic for arctic, but why not have it as part of the "extreme" setting?

Not enough cargos. OpenTTD limit is 32, FIRS extreme uses 31. Vehicles chain needs both vehicles, and vehicle parts cargos, so yair, won't fit

Anyway to rejigger it so that an individual can select up to 32 cargo slots on their own?

[NekoMaster]

Something like OpenGFX industries and how they allow you do set up the industries would be nice. Perhaps select the chains and individual industries yourself. I'm thinking though because the way things are set up, one chain may replace another, so I guess you'd either get a dropdown box or arrows to select a chain for something like "Mineral Chain" and you could select "Iron/Bauxite/Coal" or "Sulfur/Nitrates/Coal" or something like that.

[andythenorth]

Anyway to rejigger it so that an individual can select up to 32 cargo slots on their own?

Not a chance. The complexity of configuring that via newgrf parameters would be very very high. It's easier to fork FIRS and make your own - multiple people, including GaryG and SPI have done just that.

[NekoMaster]

Anyway to rejigger it so that an individual can select up to 32 cargo slots on their own?

Not a chance. The complexity of configuring that via newgrf parameters would be very very high. It's easier to fork FIRS and make your own - multiple people, including GaryG and SPI have done just that.

How easy would it be? Would it be as simple as changing a few words/numbers in NML or would you need to understand NML a bit more to do your own fork of FIRS?

[andythenorth]

How easy would it be? Would it be as simple as changing a few words/numbers in NML or would you need to understand NML a bit more to do your own fork of FIRS?

Doesn't touch NML at all. Just simple python.

Defining the cargos for an economy:
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fir ... es/firs.py

Turning an industry on in an economy (lines 37 and 38 show this for Aluminium Plant):
http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/fir ... ant.py#L36

The hardest part by far is installing the tools needed to run the compile (Python 3, chameleon, NML, make, PIL, ply-lex etc). That's probably too much for most people eh?

[leifbk]

It's not very hard to make a fork of FIRS, the code is clean and transparent. I've done it myself to protect my eyes from bleeding over sugar refineries in the 18th century and stuff like that, but I prefer not to, because you will want Andy's updates too, and then you'll have to do a lot of stuff over and over again.

[piratescooby]

Great to see Steeltown well into development , may I suggest adding Marine engineering [ship building/maintenance , Oil/gas engineering] supply boat and offshore oil rig building .Please oil/natural gas rigs . Keep up the good work ,look forward to the next development .