FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Development
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
I always start in 1850 (using NARS, eGRVTS), since i don't like starting with engine i'm never going to use, and because i get bored fairly easily, the longest i've played is to about 1910. Something like this would be perfect for me, and i'd be willing to put some time in on it. Andy, i've sent you a PM regarding this.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move in the opposite direction. - Albert Einstein
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
andythenorth wrote: I have been thinking that for certain industries, production should be tied a little more to the physical size of the industry (in tiles), and also that there should be larger and more productive industries in later years compared to earlier years. I think it's possible within the newgrf spec to check which industry layout is being used, but I would need to confirm that.
This would be a good idea. Is it possible that a industrie can actually grow? At least it could have some unused space i.e. the Powerplant from the ECS Vector. If I remember correctly the change of grafics sometimes also means change of accepted cargo too.
Allways a good idea in terms of playability would be some shortcuts in the production-chains. i.e. in PBI the sawmill also produces lumber which have to be transported to factory, but can also produce goods, which will be accepted directly by a city. On the other side the copper-chain in tropic climate need five different industies to get the final product.
A industrie representing the external trade (i.e. a habour, configurable via parameters) could do the trick.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Coxx wrote:This would be a good idea. Is it possible that a industrie can actually grow? At least it could have some unused space i.e. the Powerplant from the ECS Vector.
Growing won't happen. From reading the newgrf specs, I haven't figured out an easy way to do it, although maybe it could be faked with animation frames.
There will be unused space in many of the industries to allow players to build stations / docks / roads / tracks that fit in with the industry. If you look at the sketches in page 1, the cross-hatched areas in the engineering yard and cement plant are left empty for stations etc.
Cargo acceptance changes may happen (quarry becomes landfill for waste, for example). This allows players to keep using existing routes, but change what's being carried on them.If I remember correctly the change of grafics sometimes also means change of accepted cargo too.
There will be some of this sort of thing where appropriate, it is more fun to play. It gives the player the choice of transporting a 'final' cargo, perhaps to a nearby destination for easy money, or the more complicated thing of building up the whole industry chain, or the most interesting thing of doing both!Allways a good idea in terms of playability would be some shortcuts in the production-chains. i.e. in PBI the sawmill also produces lumber which have to be transported to factory, but can also produce goods, which will be accepted directly by a city.
We considered this idea, it's similar to Railroad Tycoon 3. We've ruled it out (for now) for various reasons to do with gameplay balance. (Apologies to Dan MacK for that, I know it's something we've talked about before). It's not out of the question, but we're not including it at the moment.A industrie representing the external trade (i.e. a habour, configurable via parameters) could do the trick.
@ Lilman424 - I've sent you a PM.
cheers,
Andy
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
- trainmaster611
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
I like the FIRS idea. Hopefully, you can make it so that the industries aren't too overdependent on each other for production (like George's ECS vectors).
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
May I come with a suggestion in PM-form?
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
If it's some kind of secret suggestion that nobody else should know of, then yes
For most industries accepting multiple cargos, delivering only one cargo is enough to generate production, but delivering the other cargo(s) as well boosts production. E.g. binging 20 tons of iron ore to the steelworks gives you less production than bringing 19t iron ore and 1t coal.trainmaster611 wrote:Hopefully, you can make it so that the industries aren't too overdependent on each other for production (like George's ECS vectors).
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
suggestion: (draft)
assume a steel mill:
bringing N ton(ne)s of ore to the steel mill will yield N t of steel (decreased by station rating)
the steel mill can only convert 10t [number to be balanced] of ore per production cycle (255 ticks?), the rest stays in the stockpile
bringing 10t of coal to the steel mill will provide an additional 10t conversion rate per production cycle
bringing another 90t of coal to the steel mill will provide 30t additional conversion rate.
so if you just bring ore to the steel mill, it will produce steel, but only at a low output rate
if you bring a little coal to the steel mill, the output is doubled
if you bring a lot of coal to the steel mill, the output is multiplied by 5
in concrete numbers:
10t ore -> 10t steel
20t ore + 10t coal -> 20t steel
50t ore + 100t coal -> 50t steel
assume a steel mill:
bringing N ton(ne)s of ore to the steel mill will yield N t of steel (decreased by station rating)
the steel mill can only convert 10t [number to be balanced] of ore per production cycle (255 ticks?), the rest stays in the stockpile
bringing 10t of coal to the steel mill will provide an additional 10t conversion rate per production cycle
bringing another 90t of coal to the steel mill will provide 30t additional conversion rate.
so if you just bring ore to the steel mill, it will produce steel, but only at a low output rate
if you bring a little coal to the steel mill, the output is doubled
if you bring a lot of coal to the steel mill, the output is multiplied by 5
in concrete numbers:
10t ore -> 10t steel
20t ore + 10t coal -> 20t steel
50t ore + 100t coal -> 50t steel
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
I think andy or foobar already mentioned they don't want stockipiling. And I don't like it tooEddi wrote:suggestion: (draft)
assume a steel mill:
bringing N ton(ne)s of ore to the steel mill will yield N t of steel (decreased by station rating)
the steel mill can only convert 10t [number to be balanced] of ore per production cycle (255 ticks?), the rest stays in the stockpile
bringing 10t of coal to the steel mill will provide an additional 10t conversion rate per production cycle
bringing another 90t of coal to the steel mill will provide 30t additional conversion rate.
so if you just bring ore to the steel mill, it will produce steel, but only at a low output rate
if you bring a little coal to the steel mill, the output is doubled
if you bring a lot of coal to the steel mill, the output is multiplied by 5
in concrete numbers:
10t ore -> 10t steel
20t ore + 10t coal -> 20t steel
50t ore + 100t coal -> 50t steel
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
I like stockpiling, but there is already George's ECS vectors and PBI that have that.
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
There will be no stockpiling in this set. There are already two sets out there offering such a feature.
The last line is rediculous in my opinion, because producing steel doesn't require lots of coal. The amount of carbon in steel is around 1-2% and the furnaces are usually not coal-powered.
I agree with the first two lines and we will include behaviour similar to that in the set.Eddi wrote:so if you just bring ore to the steel mill, it will produce steel, but only at a low output rate
if you bring a little coal to the steel mill, the output is doubled
if you bring a lot of coal to the steel mill, the output is multiplied by 5
The last line is rediculous in my opinion, because producing steel doesn't require lots of coal. The amount of carbon in steel is around 1-2% and the furnaces are usually not coal-powered.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Nowadays maybe, but I doubt they used anything else than coal in 19th century.and the furnaces are usually not coal-powered.
(This could be a good twist - decreasing demand for coal for such purposes over 20th century and increasing demand in power plants)
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
There will be at least "implicit stockpiling" if you´re going to use a procduction callback. And I think you´ll have to, considering your plans.FooBar wrote:There will be no stockpiling in this set.
Well, maybe not by coal, but by coke. Even today.[...] furnaces are usually not coal-powered.
regards
Michael
Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
well, stockpile here meaning a to-be-processed-queue, this is not to confuse with a stockpile-limit (as in stopping to accept a cargo when the queue is "full")FooBar wrote:There will be no stockpiling in this set. There are already two sets out there offering such a feature.
the last line was meant as a gameplay option to "supercharge" the industry by enforcing mass production at the expense of efficiency (deliver more primary cargo, get less secondary cargo, but at a faster rate). this can be combined with other kinds of increasing production rates, like "growing" industries.I agree with the first two lines and we will include behaviour similar to that in the set.Eddi wrote:so if you just bring ore to the steel mill, it will produce steel, but only at a low output rate
if you bring a little coal to the steel mill, the output is doubled
if you bring a lot of coal to the steel mill, the output is multiplied by 5
The last line is rediculous in my opinion, because producing steel doesn't require lots of coal. The amount of carbon in steel is around 1-2% and the furnaces are usually not coal-powered.
i'm sure you can whip up a real life example, but you don't have to support _every_ gameplay feature with "realism".
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Actually (sorry FooBar) Michael's quite right, code tests I've already worked on all use the production callback and stockpiling is implicit due to that, as cargo is processed every so many ticks. This will be done in a way that's fun and easy for the player, but it will be necessary (and supplied cargo shouldn't convert instantly into produced cargo immediately anyway in my view).michael blunck wrote:There will be at least "implicit stockpiling" if you´re going to use a procduction callback. And I think you´ll have to, considering your plans.FooBar wrote:There will be no stockpiling in this set.
However there won't be stockpile limits, and it won't be necessary to keep supplied cargos in a particular precise ratio.
The metal chain in CanSet has this about right (although I did have a steel mill with 17,000t of coal waiting to be processed) .
cheers,
Andy
Last edited by andythenorth on 29 Jan 2009 16:45, edited 2 times in total.
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
That's, I think, what basically matters. The most annoying thing is not stockpiling itself, but rather a limit to stockpiles, thus to acceptance . It can be good to have one for certain scenarios, but it's nice to be able to play without such limits. Maybe make it a parameter (but very low on the todo list, maybe for version 1.1 or so).andythenorth wrote:However there won't be stockpile limits, and it won't be necessary to keep supplied cargos in a particular precise ratio.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Well, that's what I meant to say with 'there will be no stockpiling', but apparently I messed it up I was referring to the limits, but I probably should have made that more clear...andythenorth wrote:However there won't be stockpile limits, and it won't be necessary to keep supplied cargos in a particular precise ratio.
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Well I was thinking of in the ECS Vectors how all of the raw resources industries were dependent on the production of 'vehicle's which in turn depended on raw resources...see where i'm going with this? I just think it should be more of a hierarchy type structure versus a interlinked web of dependency.FooBar wrote:If it's some kind of secret suggestion that nobody else should know of, then yes
For most industries accepting multiple cargos, delivering only one cargo is enough to generate production, but delivering the other cargo(s) as well boosts production. E.g. binging 20 tons of iron ore to the steelworks gives you less production than bringing 19t iron ore and 1t coal.trainmaster611 wrote:Hopefully, you can make it so that the industries aren't too overdependent on each other for production (like George's ECS vectors).
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
You're quite right. When I designed the cargo and industry list I was thinking the same. Initially I had a plan for more dependencies, then I worked out:trainmaster611 wrote:.see where i'm going with this? I just think it should be more of a hierarchy type structure versus a interlinked web of dependency.
1. it's not that much fun
2. players could get a gridlocked map where they "need machinery to mine the iron ore to take to the steel mill to make steel for the machine shop to produce machines to mine the iron ore..." Yeah we could get around that, but basically our plan just avoids that.
cheers,
Andy
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
I haven't seen any industries which have circular requirements like that. In George's ECS vectors, vehicles boost the production of some primary industries, but the primary industries still work just find without vehicles.
And point 1 is subjective, I find it quite fun (which is why I think I will stick with George's ECS vectors).
And point 1 is subjective, I find it quite fun (which is why I think I will stick with George's ECS vectors).
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Re: newgrf proposal: FIRS Industry Replacement Set
Nah, don't get me wrong, I wasn't knocking ECS I was talking about my own planned industry loop, which I wrote down, looked at, and spotted the gridlock problemConditional Zenith wrote:I haven't seen any industries which have circular requirements like that.
Anyway, I guess I need to start drawing soon.
cheers,
Andy
FIRS Industry Replacement Set (released) | HEQS Heavy Equipment Set (trucks, industrial trams and more) (finished)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
Unsinkable Sam (ships) (preview released) | CHIPS Has Improved Players' Stations (finished)
Iron Horse ((trains) (released) | Termite (tracks for Iron Horse) (released) | Busy Bee (game script) (released)
Road Hog (road vehicles and trams) (released)
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