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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:17 pm 
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Sapphire united wrote:
I also think that the game would have some sort of health issue when a ship carring 22 million litres of oil is suddenly sold, or rather its cargo type is changed.

22 million litres? that puts the exon valeez to shame lol. And what are you saying that one ship could supply a country its whole oil demand? Riduculous.

Besides evironmentalists probably wouldnt be to happy about 22 million litres of oil potentially spilling and creating a black gold tsunami.


Ehh 22 million litres of oil is not much at all. I don't know what country you are referring to, maybe Luxembourg could hold out a day or two on it....

As far as real tankers go 22 million liters is very little.

These tanker categories are the ones usually referred to as supertankers:
VLCC (Very-Large Crude Carrier): 200 000 to 320 000 dwt = 211 983 060 to 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
ULCC (Ultra-Large Crude Carrier): over 320 000 dwt = over 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
V Plus (there are only 4 of these): over 440 000 dwt = over 466 362 733 liters.

The world's largest supertanker can hold 564 763 dwt that is about 600 million liters!

22 million litres is just one tenth of what it takes for ship to be a supertanker but it would fit in the very smallest category of merchant tanker ships there is.
The Seawaymax-class with a min at about 10 million litres and max at 60 million. These are commonly used for lake freight, though there are larger tankers then this in for example the Great Lakes.

I calculated about 6 and 2/3 oil barrels per deadweight tonnage, this should be the most common crude oil. However ships usually have a good margin to take lighter or heavier crude oil.

Also the Exxon Valdez is estimated to have spilled about 11 million gallons of oil ... that would be 42 million liters. That is out of the 53 million gallon or 200 million liters it was carrying at the time.

22 million liters was almost half a supertanker back in 1950 though :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:36 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Sapphire united wrote:
I also think that the game would have some sort of health issue when a ship carring 22 million litres of oil is suddenly sold, or rather its cargo type is changed.

22 million litres? that puts the exon valeez to shame lol. And what are you saying that one ship could supply a country its whole oil demand? Riduculous.

Besides evironmentalists probably wouldnt be to happy about 22 million litres of oil potentially spilling and creating a black gold tsunami.


Ehh 22 million litres of oil is not much at all. I don't know what country you are referring to, maybe Luxembourg could hold out a day or two on it....

As far as real tankers go 22 million liters is very little.

These tanker categories are the ones usually referred to as supertankers:
VLCC (Very-Large Crude Carrier): 200 000 to 320 000 dwt = 211 983 060 to 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
ULCC (Ultra-Large Crude Carrier): over 320 000 dwt = over 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
V Plus (there are only 4 of these): over 440 000 dwt = over 466 362 733 liters.

The world's largest supertanker can hold 564 763 dwt that is about 600 million liters!

22 million litres is just one tenth of what it takes for ship to be a supertanker but it would fit in the very smallest category of merchant tanker ships there is.
The Seawaymax-class with a min at about 10 million litres and max at 60 million. These are commonly used for lake freight, though there are larger tankers then this in for example the Great Lakes.

I calculated about 6 and 2/3 oil barrels per deadweight tonnage, this should be the most common crude oil. However ships usually have a good margin to take lighter or heavier crude oil.

Also the Exxon Valdez is estimated to have spilled about 11 million gallons of oil ... that would be 42 million liters. That is out of the 53 million gallon or 200 million liters it was carrying at the time.

22 million liters was almost half a supertanker back in 1950 though :)

Great Information !! However u should add some proofs (pics, links). Also the current output of oil wells /oil rigs is very low as compared to the increased carrying capacities of these tankers (22 million liters). So in order to use tankers with such large capacities, new industries will have to be coded (by developers / industries grf's authors)to produce larger amounts of oil /month than they do currently. Till this is done u will need a ship with lesser capacities or else ur ship will remain at an oil rig for many years if full load option is used.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:30 pm 
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blitzkrieg wrote:
zedd wrote:
Sapphire united wrote:
I also think that the game would have some sort of health issue when a ship carring 22 million litres of oil is suddenly sold, or rather its cargo type is changed.

22 million litres? that puts the exon valeez to shame lol. And what are you saying that one ship could supply a country its whole oil demand? Riduculous.

Besides evironmentalists probably wouldnt be to happy about 22 million litres of oil potentially spilling and creating a black gold tsunami.


Ehh 22 million litres of oil is not much at all. I don't know what country you are referring to, maybe Luxembourg could hold out a day or two on it....

As far as real tankers go 22 million liters is very little.

These tanker categories are the ones usually referred to as supertankers:
VLCC (Very-Large Crude Carrier): 200 000 to 320 000 dwt = 211 983 060 to 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
ULCC (Ultra-Large Crude Carrier): over 320 000 dwt = over 339 172 897 liters of standard crude oil
V Plus (there are only 4 of these): over 440 000 dwt = over 466 362 733 liters.

The world's largest supertanker can hold 564 763 dwt that is about 600 million liters!

22 million litres is just one tenth of what it takes for ship to be a supertanker but it would fit in the very smallest category of merchant tanker ships there is.
The Seawaymax-class with a min at about 10 million litres and max at 60 million. These are commonly used for lake freight, though there are larger tankers then this in for example the Great Lakes.

I calculated about 6 and 2/3 oil barrels per deadweight tonnage, this should be the most common crude oil. However ships usually have a good margin to take lighter or heavier crude oil.

Also the Exxon Valdez is estimated to have spilled about 11 million gallons of oil ... that would be 42 million liters. That is out of the 53 million gallon or 200 million liters it was carrying at the time.

22 million liters was almost half a supertanker back in 1950 though :)

Great Information !! However u should add some proofs (pics, links). Also the current output of oil wells /oil rigs is very low as compared to the increased carrying capacities of these tankers (22 million liters). So in order to use tankers with such large capacities, new industries will have to be coded (by developers / industries grf's authors)to produce larger amounts of oil /month than they do currently. Till this is done u will need a ship with lesser capacities or else ur ship will remain at an oil rig for many years if full load option is used.


Or you can have multiple smaller oil rigs and use trains to bring all the oil in a single harbor. From there you'll transport the oil to the refinery across some great lake or sea or whatever.

Some table of tanker sizes is on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanker_(ship)

While 22M liters of oil is rather small for a tanker (at least for modern tanker, the classification system introduced in 1954 considered capacity of 45000 tons or more to be very large ship), according to GRF specs - http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... tion0Ships - the capacity of vehicle is word (16 byte signed integer), thus maximum possible capacity of any ship in OpenTTD (and TTDPatch) is 65535 units of cargo (or 65 535 000 liters of oil). No way to have any VLCC or ULCC tanker, unfortunately.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 10:49 pm 
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Quote:
Great Information !! However u should add some proofs (pics, links). Also the current output of oil wells /oil rigs is very low as compared to the increased carrying capacities of these tankers (22 million liters). So in order to use tankers with such large capacities, new industries will have to be coded (by developers / industries grf's authors)to produce larger amounts of oil /month than they do currently. Till this is done u will need a ship with lesser capacities or else ur ship will remain at an oil rig for many years if full load option is used.


The source is Wikipedia, primarily:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_tanker

As for oil field output that was a bit more difficult to find and it was not really my intention to be that thoroughl.
My point is simply that real ships are HUGE, I am very well aware that you can't just put a 600 million liters oil tanker in OpenTTD...

Anyhow the way it works in real life is that you build pipelines. They will transport an entire nations oil production or more to just a small number of large ports where the oil for export will be loaded onto these supertankers.

Unfortunately there are no pipelines in ottd and I don't really see any situation where you in real life would transport crude oil on trains these days.
It's kinda oil field -> pipeline -> port -> supertanker -> port and refinery ... then the petroleum or what not maybe will be carried by train.
Maybe there is some inland refinery somewhere or some very low production field not suitable for pipelines but I doubt it...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:02 am 
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Bilbo wrote:
... according to GRF specs - http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php ... tion0Ships - the capacity of vehicle is word (16 byte signed integer), thus maximum possible capacity of any ship in OpenTTD (and TTDPatch) is 65535 units of cargo (or 65 535 000 liters of oil). No way to have any VLCC or ULCC tanker, unfortunately.

Surely the obvious solution is to move the decimal point. Its not in 1,000 litre amounts (for ships), but in 10,000 litres. So max capacity would be 655,350,000 litres which is a pretty good match.

And if the capacities (and offshore production) are increased, then the conversion from oil to goods needs to be proportionately downscaled. The problem will come when you transfer the oil to shore - you wouldnt want a 10x increase in value just by doing the final step by rail.

Maybe just change the display of capacity on the ships.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:26 am 
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I have been shot down by suppieor officals and resign from this topic. 8o

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:29 am 
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richk67 wrote:
Maybe just change the display of capacity on the ships.


Not a good idea, cause next day we will get swamped with bug reports like "90% of cargo disappeared once I offloaded it from ship to train"

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:45 am 
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I agree not a good idea.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:30 am 
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zedd wrote:
Quote:
Great Information !! However u should add some proofs (pics, links). Also the current output of oil wells /oil rigs is very low as compared to the increased carrying capacities of these tankers (22 million liters). So in order to use tankers with such large capacities, new industries will have to be coded (by developers / industries grf's authors)to produce larger amounts of oil /month than they do currently. Till this is done u will need a ship with lesser capacities or else ur ship will remain at an oil rig for many years if full load option is used.


The source is Wikipedia, primarily:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_tanker

As for oil field output that was a bit more difficult to find and it was not really my intention to be that thoroughl.
My point is simply that real ships are HUGE, I am very well aware that you can't just put a 600 million liters oil tanker in OpenTTD...

Anyhow the way it works in real life is that you build pipelines. They will transport an entire nations oil production or more to just a small number of large ports where the oil for export will be loaded onto these supertankers.

Unfortunately there are no pipelines in ottd and I don't really see any situation where you in real life would transport crude oil on trains these days.
It's kinda oil field -> pipeline -> port -> supertanker -> port and refinery ... then the petroleum or what not maybe will be carried by train.
Maybe there is some inland refinery somewhere or some very low production field not suitable for pipelines but I doubt it...



Lets not use vechicles lets use pipelines and huge conveyer belts!! Horray, the whole point of openttd, its challenges and its enjoyment factor just flew out the door.

Just admit it, oil transport in openttd is unrealistic.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:54 am 
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I don't know. Maybe the name of the unit for oil could just be changed from liters to barrels.
I mean who the hell measures oil in lites anyhow? Even the oil my dad purchase to heat his house is sold by the barrel.
This should put the current tanker ships in league with the smaller real ones. (not supertanker but at least real tanker ships used for oceanic and lake freight).

Much of OpenTTD is not very realistic. With new industries allowing transport of fuel it gets better though.
The difference on the ships compared to the real thing as well as the balancing of ships is a bit extreme though.
They could very well be at least 300%-400% bigger and it would still be well balanced, assuming running costs are modified upwards too.

Ships are of very limited use in OpenTTD, serving a single industry with ships is seldom very effectiveness regardless of the size of the ships.
The way I have found to make shipping enjoyable is to build an island scenario with different resources or production on each of the islands.
And here the small ship sizes relative to other sizes is a huge problem.
They are so slow and will have to cover a great distances between the islands (or you would just build railbridges instead).
So in order to get stuff from the island with 3 or 4 resource industries across the ocean to the factory you have to completely spam with ships.

Basically ships can not effectively cover long distances because they are to small and slow, and long distances is where you would normally have ships.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:06 am 
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zedd wrote:
I don't know. Maybe the name of the unit for oil could just be changed from liters to barrels.
.


But thats like back stabbing lord chris. You wouldn't want to anger ol mighty chris. Just think of what would happen if all of a sudden openttd wasnt very open any more and MircroProse Claims rights to everything again and enforces them. I guess when that happens we will know who to blame.

Think theres A LOT of stuff that has already been changed though, so if that was going to happen then it would have happened already.

But still, Sry i cant keep a straight face. :lol: :lol: ;( :roll:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:58 am 
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hmmmm... im not sure what it is you want.

If you want to keep the game as it was, then dont use this grf.

A lot of real life ships carry huge ammounts of cargo, far more than say a train load. In ttd, they are a little small, and there's little use for them. I like the idea that you can have massive ships that travel very slowly across your map. I think it makes them more useable in the game. Of course- the cost will increase to keep the game balanced.

I dont think it matters that capacaties dont reflect real life. This is only a game. It doesnt seem ridiculously small ammounts to me.

So- for those who simply dont like the idea of this grf, they dont have to use it.
Also- if you dont like the idea of altering the game, you maybe shouldn't read a forum on developing new graphics for the game. (not being nasty or anything, i just dont understand your thinking :wink: )

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:26 pm 
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zedd wrote:
They could very well be at least 300%-400% bigger and it would still be well balanced, assuming running costs are modified upwards too.


Running costs are a bit problem too. The cost of all vehicles have to fit in 8 bit value (1-255) and then you just manipulate the base multiplier to end up wth desired cost. As a result, most expensive ships' purchase cost and running cost can't be more than 255 times more than the cheapest one. If you want to have rather small ships too (160 passenger hovercraft with runing cost quite close to original), you'll run into this limit around 15000 tons - hovercraft have base cost somewhere close to 1, the ferries also something small, the large ships around 200-255 (close to the max), so the running costs are raised proportionally to increase in capacity and you can no more raise the cost, as you can't go over 255.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Well, one "unit" of oil is 1000 liters (as it is 1 ton for most other goods) and standard wagons have capacities around 40 of units for al the cargo. Renaming the unit won't help to increase the capacities.

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My patches: Extra large maps (1048576 high, 1048576 wide) (FS#1059), Vehicle + Town + Industry console commands (FS#1060), few minor patches (FS#2820, FS#1521, FS#2837, FS#2843), AI debugging facility

Other: Very large ships NewGRF, Bilbo's multiplayer patch pack v5 (for OpenTTD 0.7.3)


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:00 pm 
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yeah changing the unit would mess up the capacities for other vehicles.
for reference on those a tanktainers comes up to 26,000 litres (that is a tank in a frame that makes it a 20ft container matching 1 TEU)
a normal tank car should be 30 000 - 50 000 liters or so and the larger whale belly cars seem to range from about 120 000 - 200 000 litres


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:19 am 
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Sapphire united wrote:

22 million litres? that puts the exon valeez to shame lol. And what are you saying that one ship could supply a country its whole oil demand? Riduculous.


not even close. acording to wikipedia, Exxon Valdez has capacity of 1.48 million oil barrels, which is acording to google with it's calc and conversion utility: 1 480 000 * oil barrel = 235 301 197 liters

yep, 235 Million Liters of oil. a single ship. Reality is sometimes bigger than the stories. ;)

anyways, Bilbo, keep this patch going. :) with disabled long bridges, this really makes OpenTTD game again. (1024x1024 map with high amount of sea/lakes and Mountainous landscape... You will learn new way to play the game, or you will go to bankcrupt. ;)

btw, biggest ferries (notice that these are different than cruise ships) are still cruising in baltic sea... even moderate sized car ferries here takes 400 cars ( alternatively 200 trucks or busses) and at least 800 passengers. As an example, one of the fastest traditional ferries of all time: GTS FinnJet Already in 1976, it took 1800 passengers, 380 cars and had 55 000 Kw (~74 800 bhp) of power, which gave it traveling speed of 31 knots(57.5km/h). (in unofficial speed test, it has been claimed to be reaching whopping 43 knots(79.6 km/h), while empty and running with all engines (gas turbines and diesels at the same time) on, but this has not been confirmed.) If this already sounds incredible, It also had capability to run to harbours without any tugging (great manouverability) and had Best possible Ice classification still available. (heck, it used to make it's own way during rough winters and no ice breakers nearby.)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 12:44 am 
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Barrels for crude oil? That would confuse us. Why not count livestock by heads? :lol: :lol: :lol:

OK, currently we do not need supertankers. But a x10 of current capacity tanker can be usefull for high output oilrigs.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:30 am 
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I do agree that only when openttd is harder that it is fun. Starting straight coal lines on temperate maps and building huge lines is fun, but when you start being able to move mountains and fill in seas with single clicks, it just starts getting lame.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:56 pm 
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Sapphire united wrote:
I do agree that only when openttd is harder that it is fun. Starting straight coal lines on temperate maps and building huge lines is fun, but when you start being able to move mountains and fill in seas with single clicks, it just starts getting lame.


That could be solved by making the terraforming cost much higher ... or perhaps trying to obey "physical law of conserving matter" - i.e. land that gets removed somewhere have to be readded elsewhere (minus some small buffer, so once thet buffer reach +100, you can only raise land, once -100, you can only lower the land). Or progressively raising cost of land removal - removing small bits would be cheap (ie. same cost as now), removing whole mountain at once would be very expensive. Basically, the more you remove in short time, the higher the price, and the price will decay back to original in time, so people who terraform a little will have ordinary prioces, people who terraform a lot will have quite high prices.

Or perhaps combine these two ideas

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:27 am 
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One idea to make ships more profitable is to reduce the penalty for slow transport of non-perishable good (mentioned briefly here: viewtopic.php?f=33&t=29683&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=160). Ships become useful because they are so cheap to run, considering the capacity.

Larger ships would help this nicely :)


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