ECS vectors v1.1.2 (by George) 19/06/2011

[wallyweb]

Documentation updated. Is it Ok now?

"Printing works should be build on flat land near water (4 - 20) towns (Rz0 > Ed > Rz1)" looks ok ... just one more question ... what does (Rz0 > Ed > Rz1) mean?

RzX is the town zone #X radius, Ed is the distance between the industry and the town.

So that means that Printing works can be placed in Town Zone 1 and between 4 and 20 tiles from water?
Can water be a canal?

Well ok ... another question ... water bug mentioned earlier ... is it fixed now or will it be fixed in your next release?

next release

Thanks. I am looking forward to it.

[George]

"Printing works should be build on flat land near water (4 - 20) towns (Rz0 > Ed > Rz1)" looks ok ... just one more question ... what does (Rz0 > Ed > Rz1) mean?

RzX is the town zone #X radius, Ed is the distance between the industry and the town.

So that means that Printing works can be placed in Town Zone 1

It means that it should be located in a zone, where stations affect city rating.

and between 4 and 20 tiles from water?

at least 4 tiles away and at most 20 (counted for northern corner)

Can water be a canal?

Yes, canal is a water

[goalie]

hi george seems to be a bug
in your set
every time i click on a station where holzprodukte (german term) are ready to load the game crashes to desktop

[George]

hi george seems to be a bug
in your set
every time i click on a station where holzprodukte (german term) are ready to load the game crashes to desktop

Could you post a save?

[George]

Here goes the test version of Pikka's new industries as ECS vector. Please have a look.

[goalie]

hi george seems to be a bug
in your set
every time i click on a station where holzprodukte (german term) are ready to load the game crashes to desktop

Could you post a save?

here it is

it is the same with fish

[Dave]

ECS doesn't support stockpiling like Pikka's industries?

Although the opportunity to use other industries would be a bonus, currently my inkling is still towards Pikka's own set simply because it is more realistic. Not all of us want that, of course

[DaleStan]

I don't think the ECS specification mandates the presence or absence of stockpiles.

[Raichase]

I don't think the ECS specification mandates the presence or absence of stockpiles.

But, it could be done, yes? I mean, the only reason it's not in there it up to this particular implementation by a GRF author, rather than the concept itself.

[George]

ECS doesn't support stockpiling like Pikka's industries?

Do you mean storing cargo and then processing it? It was done from the beginning. Did you ever try ECS?

Although the opportunity to use other industries would be a bonus, currently my inkling is still towards Pikka's own set simply because it is more realistic. Not all of us want that, of course

What do you mean with "more realistic". Describe it, please.

[michael blunck]

I don't think the ECS specification mandates the presence or absence of stockpiles.

Correct.

But, it could be done, yes? I mean, the only reason it's not in there it up to this particular implementation by a GRF author, rather than the concept itself.

I don´t know for sure what "stockpiling" means here, but some industry-related features had been only included in TTDPatch when the first ECS draft had already been issued (e.g. opt-out of cargoes). Nevertheless, as Dale points out, this has never been part of ECS´s specification.

And yes, it could be done, and indeed it has already been done (implementing all those novel patch frills), e.g. in George´s re-implementation of ECS vectors.

regards
Michael

[Dave]

But I used the grf that you uploaded here to have a look and there weren't any stockpile strings such as "Production stopped due to lack of Coal" as there is with Pikka's stand-alone.

Or does that appear later with ECS? I didn't actually play it, just had a pre-cursory browse. I can't play it now because my computer has died and I'm accessing everything via Safe Mode before a format thanks to Andel tomorrow.

By "more realistic", I meant "not pour all coal into one power station" realism. You've said that it's in there, so that point was quickly cleared up.

[George]

But I used the grf that you uploaded here to have a look and there weren't any stockpile strings

The fact, that it does not write this string does not mean that it does not use cargo storing.

such as "Production stopped due to lack of Coal" as there is with Pikka's stand-alone.

Here is the difference between the sets. In ECS vectors almost every processing industry on the lowest production level has a possibility to produce some small amount of cargo from nothing. So, such a message would be incorrect. That's why it reports only the production level.

Or does that appear later with ECS?

It exists already. You have missed it because it was reported in a different way. In fact the ECS industries stop accepting cargo if the store place is full, just the same way as UKRSI do.

By "more realistic", I meant "not pour all coal into one power station" realism. You've said that it's in there, so that point was quickly cleared up.

well, the behaviour of the ECS industries is more complex. In contrary to UKRSI, where every industry has one limit for processing cargo, ECS industries have 6 of them. On every level the industry has its' max production and max amount of stored cargo (as UKRSI do). When some conditions are met, the industry changes its' production level (these conditions are described in documentation).
This way you can transport only as much coal to the industry, as it can process, but you can also rise this amount by increasing the production level.
I have already asked, are values for processing industries are ok or should they be halved. For example, printing works can process about 6888 tons of paper and 656 tons of dyes at max production level. It's the limit. On the contrary, the forest has the limit of 2048 tons of wood, and according on paper mill and sawmill processing factors, you need five and a half forests with the highest production level to make the printing works to overflow. In some terms yes, that means all the forest is delivered to one industry. But that's why I published my beta version and asked the question - what should be the limits for processing industries? Should 10 forests feed 1 sawmill or should 10 sawmills process wood from one forest? This question is for players. I've already asked it.

[wallyweb]

George,

There should be more resources at the top, with a few middle industries who then sell to multiple final industries.
Use the wood vector as an example:
A sawmill can barely survive receiving wood from one forest.
With more forests sending wood to the sawmill, the sawmill becomes more productive.
One sawmill can sell its wood products to several industries.
This is the way it is in real life.
To have more sawmills than there are forests could make the game impossible to play. In real life, everybody would go bankrupt. You need at least one forest per sawmill to stay in business.
If, in a new game, the game provides more sawmills than forests, I will support one or two sawmills and let the other sawmills die.

[michael blunck]

such as "Production stopped due to lack of Coal" as there is with Pikka's stand-alone.

In ECS vectors almost every processing industry on the lowest production level has a possibility to produce some small amount of cargo from nothing.

This is needed to "bootstrap" a primary-level industry (or you´ll be stuck in the "chiken or egg" problem ):

If there´s nothing produced, the player can't transport anything, and in turn the industry can't detect being serviced, resulting in producing nothing. Therefore, both George and me in our ECS implementations are always producing some minimal amount, and increase production only if the "%transported last month" isn't zero.

regards
Michael

[George]

Therefore, both George and me in our ECS implementations are always producing some minimal amount, and increase production only if the "%transported last month" isn't zero.

Almost correct with one exception. ECS vectors test %transported last month for the normal production level and higher. On the low production levels the production may increase even if the cargo is not transported. That is done for AI who can't control that the industry does not accept cargo when the store place is full and simply unloads cargo on the station that makes this cargo lost.

[George]

Use the wood vector as an example:

Good idea to make the example. How many industries of each type should it be in optimal chain? I mean forests, sawmills, paper mills, printing works and furniture fabrics.

A sawmill can barely survive receiving wood from one forest. With more forests sending wood to the sawmill, the sawmill becomes more productive. One sawmill can sell its wood products to several industries.

does it mean, that sawmill can produce so many wood products, that a single paper mill or furniture fabric can process it?

This is the way it is in real life. To have more sawmills than there are forests could make the game impossible to play. In real life, everybody would go bankrupt. You need at least one forest per sawmill to stay in business.

but at most?

If, in a new game, the game provides more sawmills than forests, I will support one or two sawmills and let the other sawmills die.

that is intended.

[wallyweb]

Hi George,
First, a little help with your English. This is not a criticism ... it is coaching. In English "fabric" is cloth or textile. Yes, one can say furniture is "fabricated" but the better term is "manufactured". An industry that manufactures something is a "manufacturer" and is located in a building called a "factory" or a "plant" or a "works" or a "facility". So you might want use the term "Furniture factory".

Use the wood vector as an example:

Good idea to make the example. How many industries of each type should it be in optimal chain? I mean forests, sawmills, paper mills, printing works and furniture fabrics.

A sawmill can barely survive receiving wood from one forest. With more forests sending wood to the sawmill, the sawmill becomes more productive. One sawmill can sell its wood products to several industries.

does it mean, that sawmill can produce so many wood products, that a single paper mill or furniture fabric can process it?

This is the way it is in real life. To have more sawmills than there are forests could make the game impossible to play. In real life, everybody would go bankrupt. You need at least one forest per sawmill to stay in business.

but at most?

If, in a new game, the game provides more sawmills than forests, I will support one or two sawmills and let the other sawmills die.

that is intended.

This is very difficult to answer. If you have one of each industry then the chain is complete. But production would be very low. So to increase production you need more wood which means you need more forests. With enough forests, one sawmill would be able to meet the demands of any number of paper mills and furniture factories. If you put a limit on the productivity of a sawmill then it is conceivable that you would need more sawmills. If you have many paper mills and furniture factories, then it is conceivable that you would need more sawmills. I think the question should not be how many resource industries. Let the game decide that randomly. Also let the game decide the productivity of each forest.

Now the question becomes how to determine the efficiency of a sawmill. How much wood can it process into wood products over a period of time? How many tons of wood do you need to make one ton of product? How many game tics to produce one ton of product (or how many tons of product are produced in each game tic)? What is the maximum inventory of wood that a sawmill can hold? If the inventory is full, then perhaps the sawmill could produce product at 100% and if the inventory is less than half full then produce at 75 or 50% and if the inventory is almost empty then produce at 10%. I can't give a precise answer as to which level is best.

You also have to consider product waiting to be picked up. Does the sawmill have a maximum for inventory of product waiting to be picked up? This should affect productivity too. If the inventory is at 100% then production should stop. Production should be reduced as the product inventory approaches 100%.

I can't propose an ideal number of each industry to have. I feel this should be random so as to cause the player to make decisions. Definitely there should a minimum of one of each resource with the player having the option to prospect for more. If the game makes too many resources, the player can decide which ones to support. As for the other industries, if the player has enough money he can always build some if the game forgot to build them.

[PikkaBird]

If the inventory is full, then perhaps the sawmill could produce product at 100% and if the inventory is less than half full then produce at 75 or 50% and if the inventory is almost empty then produce at 10%.

This is basically how the UKRSI works.

You also have to consider product waiting to be picked up. Does the sawmill have a maximum for inventory of product waiting to be picked up? This should affect productivity too. If the inventory is at 100% then production should stop. Production should be reduced as the product inventory approaches 100%.

Industries do not store outgoing cargo. When an industry produces an item of cargo, it is either given to a nearby station (based on that station's rating for the cargo), or destroyed. The only data available to industries about outgoing cargos is how much they produced last month, and what percentage of it was transported (ie, given to a station).

[wallyweb]

If the inventory is full, then perhaps the sawmill could produce product at 100% and if the inventory is less than half full then produce at 75 or 50% and if the inventory is almost empty then produce at 10%.

This is basically how the UKRSI works.

And it works quite nicely I might add.

You also have to consider product waiting to be picked up. Does the sawmill have a maximum for inventory of product waiting to be picked up? This should affect productivity too. If the inventory is at 100% then production should stop. Production should be reduced as the product inventory approaches 100%.

Industries do not store outgoing cargo. When an industry produces an item of cargo, it is either given to a nearby station (based on that station's rating for the cargo), or destroyed. The only data available to industries about outgoing cargos is how much they produced last month, and what percentage of it was transported (ie, given to a station).

Which means that not all production is passed to the station? And this depends upon the station's rating? Can this rating be arbitrarily controlled?