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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 7:43 am 
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tlpwka wrote:
George wrote:
Please provide a savegame, where autoreplace fails, for test.

Hello, there is an example save game:
https://yadi.sk/d/yrySurXCfFhYg
This one was made later but there is same thing (f.ex. EP22 and VL 60 don't have same possibility of auto-replace).
And there is openttd 1.4.4 portable archive used to play that savegame (incl. newgrfs)
https://yadi.sk/d/yrySurXCfFhYg
Both links points to the same save file. Also there are a lot of GRFs that are not represented on bananas. It would be nice to reproduce the problem in the clean trunk with only GRFs, represented on bananas.

I've made a test game and had no problem in autoreplacing VL22 with VL23
In case you mean you can't autoreplace VL22 with VL22M, then the reason is VL22 is passenger/freight locomotive, while VL22M is freigh locomotive.
Autoreplace does not allow to replace the engines of different type. You have to do it manually.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 12:06 pm 
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After testing latest release on MP server, I have some remarks:
1. autoreplace rules are not clear, for example it is not possible to autoreplace DA1 or TE1 with almost identical TEM1.
2. using availability period strictly related with real production span broke game flow:
- first of all, openttd randomise these dates, therefore they should have additional margin to avoid "black holes",
secondly, in real life given locomotive was produced in given period because of specific demand, you cannot reproduce this demand in case of game (especially MP)
3. related to 2, if you really want to keep real world based availability, please extend retirement early period to the end of the vehicle life.
If you are forcing player to buy some railway stock in advance because of short terms of availability, don't allow to drop reliability. Especially if depot storage is paid - if I pay for maintenance of preserved almost brand new locomotive, I expect that reliability would not drop below 60% for next 30 years of this vehicle life.
4. related to 2, for late game, every DMU units disappear from menu, the last produced type should be never expired.
5. not sure if bug or feature, but I noticed, that all these locomotives are very weak. Especially TE is decreased, for example M62 has 196 instead of 373 kN.
7. different cargo aging and loading speed should be remarked in buy menu (see Ikarus set for example).
6. every freight cars, even early ones (for example ntv-s) have 120 km/h maximal speed, is it correct?

Despite above flaws, this set is awesome, even if it is early 0.3 version.


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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 8:13 pm 
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McZapkie wrote:
After testing latest release on MP server, I have some remarks:
1. autoreplace rules are not clear, for example it is not possible to autoreplace DA1 or TE1 with almost identical TEM1.
DA / TE1 are specified as passenger/freight locomotive. TEM1 is specified as shunting (freight) locomotive. Unfortunately there is no way to specify a compatible vehicles list.

McZapkie wrote:
2. using availability period strictly related with real production span broke game flow:
- first of all, openttd randomise these dates, therefore they should have additional margin to avoid "black holes",
secondly, in real life given locomotive was produced in given period because of specific demand, you cannot reproduce this demand in case of game (especially MP)
Yes. But what do you suggest?

McZapkie wrote:
3. related to 2, if you really want to keep real world based availability, please extend retirement early period to the end of the vehicle life.
Done already.

McZapkie wrote:
If you are forcing player to buy some railway stock in advance because of short terms of availability, don't allow to drop reliability. Especially if depot storage is paid - if I pay for maintenance of preserved almost brand new locomotive, I expect that reliability would not drop below 60% for next 30 years of this vehicle life.
Unfortunately there are no CBs to control it :(

McZapkie wrote:
4. related to 2, for late game, every DMU units disappear from menu, the last produced type should be never expired.
Later models would be added

McZapkie wrote:
7. different cargo aging and loading speed should be remarked in buy menu (see Ikarus set for example).
What form do you intend? I can't find anything about it in the Ikarus set I have :?

McZapkie wrote:
6. every freight cars, even early ones (for example ntv-s) have 120 km/h maximal speed, is it correct?
Yes, we could not find any information about other limits. Early freight wagons were also found (on photos) in the passenger trains. That means they were used with the speed of the fast passengers trains - up to 120 km/h. We understand, that was not common, but because it happened, we decided to allow it in the set too.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2015 8:46 pm 
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I'm not sure, if it is necessary to define separate sets of freight/passengers/shunters by means of 0 cargo type,
in reality such engines are used without distinction, maybe except express passengers.
But large shunters or freight locomotives are common used for passengers trains (there is no heating issue because most USSR carriages have individual heating AFAIK), lets give user oportunity to decide what locomotive to use.

George wrote:
Unfortunately there are no CBs to control it :(

I was refering to retire_early - if vehicle life is 40 years, model life should have retire early period about 30 years.
For example, there is small tender locomotive 'klop', it dissapear from menu before diesel 3-axle shunter is available,
therefore I should be able to buy some steam shunters and keep them for future use without loosing maximal reliability.

George wrote:
What form do you intend? I can't find anything about it in the Ikarus set I have :?

Version 6 have green/yellow/red string refering to fast/medium/slow loading time and long/medium/high aging rate.
I'm not sure how those numbers are defined for xUSSR set - based on real parameters or just magic,
but if you are interested, I have proposal of macro to define it basing on doors number, (non)compartment etc.

George wrote:
Early freight wagons were also found (on photos) in the passenger trains. That means they were used with the speed of the fast passengers trains - up to 120 km/h. We understand, that was not common, but because it happened, we decided to allow it in the set too.

I doubt that ordinary plain bearings allow speed above 80 kmph in case of heavy freight wagons. 120 kmph is for modern rolling bearings.
It is possible, that there were some designs for fast reefers or covered cars for express cargo, but gondolas and flat cars have probably limited speed and mixed passenger/freight trains was not very fast.
From gameplay point of view, some freight cars should have limited speed to promote use of some freight locomotives, instead of using passenger locomotives for both passenger and freight trains.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 12:19 am 
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I don't know much about russian railways, but in germany, the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 10:51 am 
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Quote:
I doubt that ordinary plain bearings allow speed above 80 kmph in case of heavy freight wagons.

They allowed higher speeds but ussualy speeds of trains were less than that.

Quote:
From gameplay point of view, some freight cars should have limited speed to promote use of some freight locomotives, instead of using passenger locomotives for both passenger and freight trains.

That's what railway speed limit must do.

Quote:
the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s

There were freight cars with 18-100/18-109 bogies with construction speed of 120km/h as early as 1946. But I can't find any information about speed of wagons before that year.
Only specialized wagons have had lower limit. Ones like livestock cars, heavy transporters (200+ tons) and 6-axle dumpcars.

Quote:
I'm not sure how those numbers are defined for xUSSR set - based on real parameters or just magic

They based mostly on type of wagon.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 1:46 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
I don't know much about russian railways, but in germany, the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s
Yes, freight trains had low speed. But wagons for freight trains (box vans, flatbeds) were attached to passenger trains sometimes, which traveled much faster. This means a wagon should not have that low speed limit, otherwise it would decrease the speed of the passenger train.

McZapkie wrote:
I'm not sure, if it is necessary to define separate sets of freight/passengers/shunters by means of 0 cargo type, in reality such engines are used without distinction, maybe except express passengers.
But large shunters or freight locomotives are common used for passengers trains (there is no heating issue because most USSR carriages have individual heating AFAIK), lets give user oportunity to decide what locomotive to use.
The user has this opportunity, he only can't auto-replace them.
I've added a task to improve it (https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7671)

McZapkie wrote:
I was refering to retire_early - if vehicle life is 40 years, model life should have retire early period about 30 years.
For example, there is small tender locomotive 'klop', it dissapear from menu before diesel 3-axle shunter is available,
therefore I should be able to buy some steam shunters and keep them for future use without loosing maximal reliability.
9P produced till 1957, TGM23 since 1972. Why should 9P be produced up to 1972? There is a parameter "Vehicles never disappear" in menu.

McZapkie wrote:
I'm not sure how those numbers are defined for xUSSR set - based on real parameters or just magic,
but if you are interested, I have proposal of macro to define it basing on doors number, (non)compartment etc.
They were calculated depending on number of doors, doors types, ...
I've added a task to display this information (https://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/7672)

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 4:53 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
I don't know much about russian railways, but in germany, the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s

I'm not sure if comparing European and Russian train is valid, rather USA ones.
But it is hard to believe, that these tiny gondolas with two axles attached to solid frame were able to run 120 kmph.
George, mixed freight/passenger trains were something quite normal, but rather slow, do you have any evidences (Dienstfahrplan - service timetable?) that fast passenger trains has freight cars attached?

George wrote:
McZapkie wrote:
I was referring to retire_early - if vehicle life is 40 years, model life should have retire early period about 30 years.
For example, there is small tender locomotive 'klop', it dissapear from menu before diesel 3-axle shunter is available,
therefore I should be able to buy some steam shunters and keep them for future use without loosing maximal reliability.
9P produced till 1957, TGM23 since 1972. Why should 9P be produced up to 1972? There is a parameter "Vehicles never disappear" in menu.

I didn't ask about purchase of 9P in 1972, but to prevent reliability drop in 1972. Locomotive purchased in 1957 have still half of its lifetime but is completely unusable, if breakdowns are on.
It can be fixed without any effort, via redefining get_retire_early and get_model_life macro to achieve rather positive than negative retire_early value:

Code:
retire_early_default = -8;  //minimal model life span
retire_late_default = 31; //extended reliability time span 30-8-8 = 15 years
#define get_retire_early(x, y) x-y-2 < retire_early_default ? retire_early_default+1+retire_late_default : x-y-1+retire_late_default
// модель
#define get_model_life(x, y) y >= 2050 ? VEHICLE_NEVER_EXPIRES : (x-y-2 < retire_early_default ? y-x+2+retire_late_default : -retire_early_default+retire_late_default)


Above code (not tested) should keep maximal reliability at least 15 years after the end of production.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 5:33 pm 
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George wrote:
Eddi wrote:
I don't know much about russian railways, but in germany, the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s
Yes, freight trains had low speed. But wagons for freight trains (box vans, flatbeds) were attached to passenger trains sometimes, which traveled much faster. This means a wagon should not have that low speed limit, otherwise it would decrease the speed of the passenger train.
i don't think that conclusion is valid.

mixed passenger and freight trains are much slower than pure passenger trains, because a) they have to travel at the lower speed of freight trains, and b) they have to insert a shunting break at each station. this is why it was usually only practiced on branch lines.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 9:53 pm 
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Eddi wrote:
George wrote:
Eddi wrote:
I don't know much about russian railways, but in germany, the speed of freight trains was about 30km/h until WWI, 60km/h afterwards, before WWII the first experiments with 90km/h started, and 120km/h was introduced around the 1970s
Yes, freight trains had low speed. But wagons for freight trains (box vans, flatbeds) were attached to passenger trains sometimes, which traveled much faster. This means a wagon should not have that low speed limit, otherwise it would decrease the speed of the passenger train.
i don't think that conclusion is valid.

mixed passenger and freight trains are much slower than pure passenger trains, because a) they have to travel at the lower speed of freight trains, and b) they have to insert a shunting break at each station. this is why it was usually only practiced on branch lines.


Most generally what limits goods trains to 40-60km/h was the lack of centralised air brakes, though- you don't want to speed if you cannot slow down promptly enough. If, say, just two goods wagons are coupled at the end of a passenger train, it shouldn't have such a problem with braking power.

Aside, but did the Soviet railways never have any locomotive hauled passenger carriages for suburban traffic with higher numbers of seats? (I tried to find some index of Soviet locomotive hauled rolling stock, but it's hard to find details about that.) 54 seats in coupés is pretty wasted on short-haul routes.


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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2015 10:32 pm 
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Mizari wrote:
Most generally what limits goods trains to 40-60km/h was the lack of centralised air brakes, though- you don't want to speed if you cannot slow down promptly enough. If, say, just two goods wagons are coupled at the end of a passenger train, it shouldn't have such a problem with braking power.
brakes are not the only problem. stability of the frame, and distance between axles also affect reasonably achievable speed

Quote:
Aside, but did the Soviet railways never have any locomotive hauled passenger carriages for suburban traffic with higher numbers of seats? (I tried to find some index of Soviet locomotive hauled rolling stock, but it's hard to find details about that.) 54 seats in coupés is pretty wasted on short-haul routes.

russia isn't exactly known for their short distances :p

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 4:03 pm 
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McZapkie wrote:
5. all these locomotives are very weak. Especially TE is decreased, for example M62 has 196 instead of 373 kN.
We use countinious power and tractive effort, not maximum (hour mode, or overboost at start). Our locomotives are not weak. As for power, TE, price and running costs they they're overpowered for regular TT trains of 5–10–15 squares lenght.

McZapkie wrote:
6. every freight cars, even early ones (for example ntv-s) have 120 km/h maximal speed, is it correct?
It's an assumption. Pre-WWII cargo wagons didn't have any official speed limits as well as passenger wagons. There was no need to establish any limits for wagons because tracks were poor and steam locos were slowly enough.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2015 9:07 pm 
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Wowanxm wrote:
We use countinious power and tractive effort, not maximum (hour mode, or overboost at start).

Whereas continuous power approach is fair and correct, TE should not be decreased, because this parameter is just definition of start overboost.
In case of realistic model of train acceleration, heavy trains would struggle to start, if stopped at the slope.

McZapkie wrote:
6. every freight cars, even early ones (for example ntv-s) have 120 km/h maximal speed, is it correct?
Wowanxm wrote:
It's an assumption. Pre-WWII cargo wagons didn't have any official speed limits as well as passenger wagons. There was no need to establish any limits for wagons because tracks were poor and steam locos were slowly enough.

This assumption is rather false, plain bearings would burn if heavy wagon is running at such speed, and derailment is unlikely for solid frame without boogies and double springs.
According to J.Slezak book, in 1965 only 30% of freight cars has rolling bearings. New freight cars for 120km/h, with rolling bearings and improved suspension were only planned.

From the game play point of view, it is not wise to have early 120kmph fast wagons, because what is a reason to purchase new ones than?
In my opinion, 2-axle freight cars should have 80 kmph limit, except covered and reefers (those can have 100kmph), 4-axle freight cars before ~1960 should not have 120 kmph (if such speed was not officially claimed by factory).


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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2015 10:24 pm 
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George wrote:
Please have a look

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 12:09 pm 
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Quote:
plain bearings would burn if heavy wagon is running at such speed

And they will burn. But who runs fully loaded wagons at their construction speed on poor rails? :roll:
In RL cargo trains rarely runs faster than 80 km/h. But in OpenTTD you can't normally change reability of fast-running trains and most of players even will turn wagon speed limits off to use fast ChS200 for their coal trains...
Quote:
New freight cars for 120km/h, with rolling bearings and improved suspension were only planned.

As I've already said there were bogies for 120km. They were used from late 40s up to 90s. Both rolling and plain bearings were used in them, but their speed was 120, no matter what kind of bearings were used.
There is a scan from one of technical books with highlited speed and introducing year.


Attachments:
13-H453.png [162.04 KiB]
Downloaded 2 times

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2015 1:52 pm 
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George wrote:

Great job!

Simozzz wrote:
As I've already said there were bogies for 120km. They were used from late 40s up to 90s. Both rolling and plain bearings were used in them, but their speed was 120, no matter what kind of bearings were used.
There is a scan from one of technical books with highlited speed and introducing year.

OK, you convinced me with those drawing with modern "diamond" bogie drawings, but what about prewar solid frame wagons, or on "archbar" bogies?
Not counting problems with insufficient braking power in case of fast moving heavy freight train.
Maybe it is good idea to limit speed of early heavy trains, instead of limiting speed of single wagon itself?


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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2015 8:06 am 
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I've digged some info about bogies used.
First "diamond" bogies were used as early as 1933, but there wasn't any information about their speed. Later there were M-44 (1944) and MT-50 (1950) bogies. Both have speed limit of 80 km/h. And only next one, ЦНИИ-Х3-О/18-100 (1955) had speed limit of 120 km/h. Interesting that in same article there is a statement:
Quote:
В те же 1950-е гг., параллельно с с отработкой подвешивания А.Г. Ханина, на железнодорожном транспорте началось широкое внедрение подшипников качения. Но еще в 1930-х гг. установлено, что с повышением скорости движения свыше 60 км/ч сопротивление движению таких подшипников начинает резко возрастать, а при 90 км/ч оно становится выше, чем у подшипников скольжения.

For speeds over 90km/h plain bearings has less resistance to motion than rolling bearings.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:18 am 
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Hello,

tahnk you for this great set. When playing with the latest nightly I found weird (yellow) graphics with the slowest speed railway tracks.


Attachments:
xussr bug.png [413.88 KiB]
Not downloaded yet
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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:16 pm 
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Thank you for your attention!
But this isn't a bug. Just not all of sprites drawn for new rails, and ones missing highlited with that brigth yellow colour. Remaining sprites should be one and coded soon.

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 Post subject: Re: xUSSR Set [WIP]
PostPosted: Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:13 am 
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first, really great set ! graphics are awesome, features are great, variety too ! :bow:

but it seems to cause desync in multiplayer :|


Attachments:
File comment: -> the message after being desynced
xussr set causing desync.PNG
xussr set causing desync.PNG [ 163.04 KiB | Viewed 1693 times ]
File comment: -> a message is displayed when entering server, it says it might cause desync because it s changing capacity of a vehicle out of the depot.
screenshot#12.png [170.93 KiB]
Not downloaded yet
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